does the hook go before the thesis

Write an Attention-Grabbing Opening Sentence for an Essay

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You can think of the first sentence of your essay as you would a fishing hook. It grabs your reader and allows you reel the person into your essay and your train of thought. The hook for your essay can be an interesting sentence that captures a person's attention, it can be thought-provoking, or even, entertaining.

The hook for your essay often appears in the first sentence . The opening paragraph includes a thesis sentence . Some popular hook choices can include using an interesting quote, a little-known fact, famous last words, or a statistic .

A quote hook is best used when you are composing an essay based on an author, story, or book. It helps establish your authority on the topic and by using someone else's quote, you can strengthen your thesis if the quote supports it.

The following is an example of a quote hook: "A man's errors are his portals of discovery." In the next sentence or two, give a reason for this quote or current example. As for the last sentence (the thesis) : Students grow more confident and self-sufficient when parents allow them to make mistakes and experience failure.

General statement

By setting the tone in the opening sentence with a uniquely written general statement of your thesis, the beauty is that you get right to the point. Most readers appreciate that approach.

For example, you can start with the following statement: Many studies show that the biological sleep pattern for teens shifts a few hours, which means teens naturally stay up later and feel alert later in the morning. The next sentence, set up the body of your essay, perhaps by introducing the concept that school days should be adjusted so that they are more in sync with the teenager's natural sleep or wake cycle. As for the last sentence (the thesis) :  If every school day started at ten o'clock, many students would find it easier to stay focused.

By listing a proven fact or entertaining an interesting statistic that might even sound implausible to the reader, you can excite a reader to want to know more. 

Like this hook: According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics , teens and young adults experience the highest rates of violent crime. Your next sentence can set up the argument that it's dangerous for teenagers to be on the streets at late hours. A fitting thesis statement might read: Parents are justified in implementing a strict curfew, regardless of a student's academic performance.

The Right Hook for Your Essay

The good news about finding a hook? You can find a quote, fact, or another type of hook after you determine your thesis. You can accomplish this with a simple online search about your topic after you've developed your essay .

You can nearly have the essay finished before you revisit the opening paragraph. Many writers polish up the first paragraph after the essay is completed.

Outlining the Steps for Writing Your Essay

Here's an example of the steps you can follow that help you outline your essay.

• First paragraph: Establish the thesis
• Body paragraphs: Supporting evidence
• Last paragraph: Conclusion with a restatement of the thesis
• Revisit the first paragraph: Find the best hook

Obviously, the first step is to determine your thesis. You need to research your topic and know what you plan to write about. Develop a starting statement. Leave this as your first paragraph for now.

The next paragraphs become the supporting evidence for your thesis. This is where you include the statistics, opinions of experts, and anecdotal information.

Compose a closing paragraph that is basically a reiteration of your thesis statement with new assertions or conclusive findings you find during with your research.

Lastly, go back to your introductory hook paragraph. Can you use a quote, shocking fact, or paint a picture of the thesis statement using an anecdote? This is how you sink your hooks into a reader.

The best part is if you are not loving what you come up with at first, then you can play around with the introduction. Find several facts or quotes that might work for you. Try out a few different starting sentences and determine which of your choices makes the most interesting beginning to your essay.

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• The Introductory Paragraph: Start Your Paper Off Right
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• Definition and Examples of Analysis in Composition
• Tips on How to Write an Argumentative Essay
• What an Essay Is and How to Write One
• What Is Expository Writing?
• How to Write a Good Thesis Statement
• Writing a Lead or Lede to an Article
• The Five Steps of Writing an Essay
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Guide to Writing Introductions and Conclusions

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First and last impressions are important in any part of life, especially in writing. This is why the introduction and conclusion of any paper – whether it be a simple essay or a long research paper – are essential. Introductions and conclusions are just as important as the body of your paper. The introduction is what makes the reader want to continue reading your paper. The conclusion is what makes your paper stick in the reader’s mind.

Introductions

Your introductory paragraph should include:

1) Hook:  Description, illustration, narration or dialogue that pulls the reader into your paper topic. This should be interesting and specific.

2) Transition: Sentence that connects the hook with the thesis.

3) Thesis: Sentence (or two) that summarizes the overall main point of the paper. The thesis should answer the prompt question.

The examples below show are several ways to write a good introduction or opening to your paper. One example shows you how to paraphrase in your introduction. This will help you understand the idea of writing sequences using a hook, transition, and thesis statement.

» Thesis Statement Opening

This is the traditional style of opening a paper. This is a “mini-summary” of your paper.

For example:

» Opening with a Story (Anecdote)

A good way of catching your reader’s attention is by sharing a story that sets up your paper. Sharing a story gives a paper a more personal feel and helps make your reader comfortable.

This example was borrowed from Jack Gannon’s The Week the World Heard Gallaudet (1989):

Astrid Goodstein, a Gallaudet faculty member, entered the beauty salon for her regular appointment, proudly wearing her DPN button. (“I was married to that button that week!” she later confided.) When Sandy, her regular hairdresser, saw the button, he spoke and gestured, “Never! Never! Never!” Offended, Astrid turned around and headed for the door but stopped short of leaving. She decided to keep her appointment, confessing later that at that moment, her sense of principles had lost out to her vanity. Later she realized that her hairdresser had thought she was pushing for a deaf U.S. President. Hook: a specific example or story that interests the reader and introduces the topic.

Transition: connects the hook to the thesis statement

Thesis: summarizes the overall claim of the paper

» Specific Detail Opening

Giving specific details about your subject appeals to your reader’s curiosity and helps establish a visual picture of what your paper is about.

» Open with a Quotation

Another method of writing an introduction is to open with a quotation. This method makes your introduction more interactive and more appealing to your reader.

» Open with an Interesting Statistic

Statistics that grab the reader help to make an effective introduction.

» Question Openings

Possibly the easiest opening is one that presents one or more questions to be answered in the paper. This is effective because questions are usually what the reader has in mind when he or she sees your topic.

Source : *Writing an Introduction for a More Formal Essay. (2012). Retrieved April 25, 2012, from http://flightline.highline.edu/wswyt/Writing91/handouts/hook_trans_thesis.htm

Conclusions

The conclusion to any paper is the final impression that can be made. It is the last opportunity to get your point across to the reader and leave the reader feeling as if they learned something. Leaving a paper “dangling” without a proper conclusion can seriously devalue what was said in the body itself. Here are a few effective ways to conclude or close your paper. » Summary Closing Many times conclusions are simple re-statements of the thesis. Many times these conclusions are much like their introductions (see Thesis Statement Opening).

» Close with a Logical Conclusion

This is a good closing for argumentative or opinion papers that present two or more sides of an issue. The conclusion drawn as a result of the research is presented here in the final paragraphs.

» Real or Rhetorical Question Closings

This method of concluding a paper is one step short of giving a logical conclusion. Rather than handing the conclusion over, you can leave the reader with a question that causes him or her to draw his own conclusions.

» Close with a Speculation or Opinion This is a good style for instances when the writer was unable to come up with an answer or a clear decision about whatever it was he or she was researching. For example:

» Close with a Recommendation

A good conclusion is when the writer suggests that the reader do something in the way of support for a cause or a plea for them to take action.

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How to Write a Good Hook for an Essay

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An essay hook is a captivating opening sentence. Its purpose is to evoke  the reader's curiosity and encourage them to keep reading. A hook can take various forms, such as a thought-provoking question, a surprising fact or a relevant quote.

True anglers know that there are different types of fishing hooks designed for specific bait. If we draw an analogy between fishing and academic writing, we'll understand that a hook serves the same purpose here and there. In the first case, you need to catch fish. And when you are writing an essay, you want to grab your reader's attention. There are also different ways to hook readers in various types of papers.  In this article, we will describe some most popular attention-grabbing techniques. You will find out what good hooks for essays are and how to write them.  

What Is a Hook in Writing

First of all, let's grasp what hooks for essays are and what their purpose is. Have you ever felt that your writing lacks a highlight making readers stunned from the first line? Or maybe your teacher didn't grade a paper you've written as high as you wanted? One reason for this could be an absence of a catchy statement usually included in an introduction. So hook is a remark located in the very first paragraph that grabs readers' attention. Why do you need it in an essay? That's easy. If you want people not to yawn when they start reading your paper but get excited right away, use hooks. Indeed, if your audience becomes indifferent, all efforts to inform, convince or entertain them with your writing might be in vain. Let's make it clear. We don't mean that your essay is worthless without an attention-grabber at the beginning. Still, it will be more complicated to appeal to the readers' curiosity, interest, or emotions if you don't use it. A hook will also ensure that your audience concentrates on your paper and dives deeper into the content. As we mentioned before, the hook is usually an opening line of the first paragraph. Along with background information and thesis statement, it builds an introduction. Check the image below and see a typical structure of an introduction:  

How to Write a Hook

There are different ways of writing a hook. Before choosing one, always keep in mind:

• Type of paper and its purpose (persuasive, narrative, analytical essays, and so on)
• Writing style and tone
• Target audience

Sometimes, it can be challenging to come up with corresponding hook from the beginning. In this case, you may write the complete introduction after you finish the entire paper. This way, you will have clearer vision of which passage correlates best with the content. Also, to help you choose the best essay hook, ask yourself these questions:

• Which feelings am I appealing to
• What new information do I want to give my readers

Any hook should reflect the intention of your writing. Therefore, do not choose one just because it sounds cool. Make sure it is closely connected with your  essay title  of choice and thesis statement. We will mention the most popular hooks as one of the ways to start an essay  below for consideration.  

1. Think of Using a Quote as a Hook

One catchy hook for essay is a quote by a well-known person or historical figure. A thematically chosen quotation may give the readers sense of what comes next in your writing. Such an approach doesn't drop piles of boring information on them right away. Instead, it prepares your readers and stirs up their interest to see your interpretation of the chosen words. Here is how to quote example you can use for an essay in ethics:  

2. Ask a Question

A question hook is also an excellent choice to start your essay. Since the response is hidden between the lines, anyone can find it out only by reading your text. People are curious by their nature. When they see questions without answers, they need to find them. If you appeal to this trait, starting your essay with an exciting inquiry will make your readers want to know the answer. And that's exactly what you need. Check the example of an intriguing question prepared by our essay writer to start your paper with:   

3. Make a Powerful Statement

A strong statement as an opening line is also a good hook for an essay. It's the right choice for your argumentative or persuasive paper. Such an assertion should be relevant to your thesis statement, which you put as the closing sentence in an introduction. Both such hook and thesis work perfectly well together and show the significance of your essay. No matter whether the readers agree or disagree with your statement, they will still be curious about how you support it. For instance:  

4. Mention a Delusion

Another option of commonly used hook strategies is starting with delusional facts. If there is something topic-relevant that people still believe is true while it's false, describe it without hesitation. It's one of many great essay hooks that will intrigue your readers. Got no time for that? Please  order essay , and a professional penman will do everything for you from scratch. For example:  

5. Impress With Statistics

Another good hook is a fact supported by statistics . Such openings captivate your readers since they provide undeniable proofs of particular statements. It also helps to gain trust in further arguments you will be making in your paper. Include exciting and reliable data that will impress your audience with your subject expertise. Make sure that your statistical facts come from credible sources. Here is an example for an essay about technology:  

6. Use Humor to Hook Your Reader

Humor is also one of the ways to hook a reader in an essay. People like to laugh as it makes them feel relaxed and less stressed. An anecdotal hook is something you don't want to use in a piece that discusses severe issues. It can be really out of place, and you will most likely confuse or cause dispraise among your readers. Instead, it suits best for personal narrative essays. By starting with something funny about a situation that occurred, you may let your readers know more about yourself. This way, you will make a good base for your further narration. Here is an excellent example that can fit in a paper about nutrition:

7. Start With a Description

The last but not least of great hooks for essays is a descriptive one. Many people are visually oriented, so if you aim at attracting them to read your piece, describe a setting. Such scenes can be taken from real life or a fiction story. Let your readers envision themselves in that place for better effect. It will help draw parallels between your plot and their perception. For example:  

Now you know how to write a hook for an essay. Even though you need to captivate your readers with an eye-catching opening, it alone cannot guarantee you high grades. So always pay attention to other parts of your paper. Creating an outline and writing the whole essay first will surely help you come up with an excellent hook. Proofread your work, make sure it's clear from errors, craft a powerful opening, and you'll get handsomely rewarded with a good grade. Buy custom essay if you don't feel like doing your article at the moment.

If you still believe that writing hooks is not what you are meant to be, ask our professional academic writers for help. They do know how to attract their readers and create a flawless paper of any type. Every time you place an order with us, be sure to receive an assignment of highest quality!

Frequently Asked Questions

1. how long should a hook be in an essay.

Its length can vary from 1 to a couple of sentences. It depends on the paper and hook type, writer's intentions, and the audience. 

2. Can a thesis statement be a hook?

Technically no. However, both hook and thesis serve a similar purpose of influencing the readers' concentration. First, you start an introduction with a catchy phrase to capture your reader's attention. Then you continue with writing a concise remark (thesis statement) that keeps it. 

Daniel Howard is an Essay Writing guru. He helps students create essays that will strike a chord with the readers.

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Writing Your Paper: Creating a Hook

• Brainstorming
• Creating a Hook
• Revising, Editing, and Proofreading
• Transitions
• Formal Writing
• Active vs. Passive Voice
• Peer Review
• Point of View

Any of These Can Create a Good Hook

An introduction should hook, or engage, readers and give them some insight into where you'll take them. The first sentence or two of your first paragraph set the tone for the entire piece. Here are some ideas for a strong start:

• Lead with a quotation that is provocative or well-phrased.
• Historical/Bibliographical Review – give context and background.
• Review the Controversy – involve your reader in the battle or issue you will be addressing.
• From the General to the Specific (inverted triangle) – begin with a broad situation, concept, or idea, and narrow the focus to your purpose statement/thesis.
• Begin with an anecdote or illustration – capture the audience’s imagination and interest with a story that sets the stage for your argument.
• Ask questions – place your reader in an active role.
• State your thesis/point right off the bat.
• Present a paradox – begin with an assumption that readers accept as true and lead into a claim that not only challenges that assumption but may very well seem paradoxical.
• Minding the gap introduction – call the audience’s attention to a gap in the research or subject matter; promise that you will fill in the gap. You can also identify what readers know and then what they don’t know (or what you believe they need to know).

One of the best ways to practice writing a hook is to "imitate" the way others start their pieces. Take a look at your favorite news source or blog (you could try the New York Times blogs or The Millions ) and try some of the writers' strategies (without directly copying their hooks, of course!).

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How to Write a Hook: Start Off Your Essay Strong with This Guide

What is a Hook for an Essay: Importance and Purpose

Which section of your essay can make your readers dip their toes into your writing? Is it the body paragraphs where all the analysis is laid out? Or maybe the introduction, where you present your thesis statement and voice your perspective on the subject? Well, if you think it is the latter, then we must agree with your decision. However, let's get more specific; if we take the introductory paragraph to pieces, which piece gets the most recognition? You must have guessed from the article's title that we're talking about a hook. But first, let's define what is a hook for an essay before we walk you through the reasons why it deserves our pat on the back.

The hook is the initial sentence in a written work. Whether you're asking how to write a hook for a song, blog post, or term paper, know that the purpose of any effective hook is to seize the reader's attention. It can be one sentence long, often for shorter pieces, or composed of several lines - usually for larger pieces. Making the reader want to keep reading is what an essay hook accomplishes for your paper, just as an intriguing introduction does for any piece.

Our main emphasis in this guide is on creating a good hook for an essay. Nonetheless, these fundamental guidelines apply to nearly every format for communicating with your audience. Whether writing a personal statement, a speech, or a presentation, making a solid first impression is crucial to spur your readers into action.

How to Write a Hook for Different Kinds of Writing

Although it is a tough skill to master, understanding how to write a hook is crucial for academic writing success. By reviewing the most prevalent kinds of essay hooks, you can discover how to effectively captivate readers from the start and generate a hook that is ideal for your article. To do so, let's head over to the following sections prepared by our dissertation writers .

How to Write a Hook for a College Essay?

By mastering how to write a hook for a college essay, you have the opportunity to stand out from the hundreds of applicants with identical academic portfolios to yours in your college essay. It should shed light on who you are, represent your true nature, and show your individuality. But first, you need an attention-grabbing start if you want the admissions committee to read more of yours than theirs. For this, you'll require a strong hook.

Set the Scene

When wondering how to write a good hook for an essay, consider setting the scene. Open in the middle of a key moment, plunge in with vivid details and conversation to keep your essay flowing and attract the reader. Make the reader feel like they are seeing a moment from your life and have just tuned in.

Open with an Example

Starting with a specific example is also a great idea if you're explaining how you acquired a particular skill or unique accomplishment. Then, similar to how you established the scenario above, you may return to this point later and discuss its significance throughout the remaining sections.

Open with an Anecdote

Using an anecdotal hook doesn't necessarily mean that your essay should also be humorous. The joke should be short and well-aimed to achieve the best results. To assist the reader in visualizing the situation and understanding what you are up against when tackling a task or overcoming a challenge, you might also use a funny irony. And if this sounds too overwhelming to compose, buy an essay on our platform and let our expert writers convey your unmatched story!

How to Write a Hook for an Argumentative Essay?

If you write a strong hook, your instructor will be compelled to read your argument in the following paragraphs. So, put your creative thinking cap on while crafting the hook, and write in a way that entices readers to continue reading the essay.

Use Statistics

Statistics serve as a useful hook because they encourage research. When used in argumentative writing, statistics can introduce readers to previously undiscovered details and data. That can greatly increase their desire to read your article from start to finish. You can also consider this advice when unsure how to write a good hook for a research paper. Especially if you're conducting a quantitative study, a statistic hook can be a solid start.

Use a Common Misconception

Another answer to your 'how to write a hook for an argumentative essay' question is to use a common misconception. What could be a better way to construct an interesting hook, which should grab readers' attention, than to incorporate a widely held misconception? A widespread false belief is one that many people hold to be true. When you create a hook with a misinterpretation, you startle your readers and immediately capture their interest.

How to Write a Hook for a Persuasive Essay?

The finest hooks for a persuasive essay capture the reader's interest while leading them to almost unconsciously support your position even before they are aware of it. You can accomplish this by employing the following hook ideas for an essay:

Ask a Rhetorical Question

By posing a query at the outset of your essay, you may engage the reader's critical thinking and whet their appetite for the solution you won't provide until later. Try to formulate a question wide enough for them to not immediately know the answer and detailed enough to avoid becoming a generic hook.

Use an Emotional Appeal

This is a fantastic approach to arouse sympathy and draw the reader into your cause. By appealing to the reader's emotions, you may establish a bond that encourages them to read more and get invested in the subject you cover.

Using these strategies, you won't have to wonder how to write a hook for a persuasive essay anymore!

How to Write a Hook for a Literary Analysis Essay?

Finding strong essay openers might be particularly challenging when writing a literary analysis. Coming up with something very remarkable on your own while writing about someone else's work is no easy feat. But we have some expert solutions below:

Use Literary Quotes

Using a literary quote sounds like the best option when unsure how to write a hook for a literary analysis essay. Nonetheless, its use is not restricted to that and is mostly determined by the style and meaning of the quotes. Still, when employing literary quotes, it's crucial to show two things at once: first, how well you understand the textual information. And second, you know how to capture the reader's interest right away.

Employ Quotes from Famous People

This is another style of hook that is frequently employed in literary analysis. But if you wonder how to write a good essay hook without sounding boring, choose a historical person with notable accomplishments and keep your readers intrigued and inspired to read more.

How to Write a Hook for an Informative Essay?

In an informative essay, your ultimate goal is to not only educate your audience but also engage and keep them interested from the very beginning. For this, consider the following:

Start with a Fact or Definition

You might begin your essay with an interesting fact or by giving a definition related to your subject. The same standard applies here for most types mentioned above: it must be intriguing, surprising, and/or alarming.

Ask Questions that Relate to Your Topic

Another solution to 'How to write a hook for an informative essay?' is to introduce your essay with a relevant question. This hook lets you pique a reader's interest in your essay and urge them to keep reading as they ponder the answer.

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Expert-Approved Tips for Writing an Essay Hook

Are you still struggling with the ideal opening sentence for your essay? Check out some advice from our essay helper on how to write a hook sentence and make your opening stand out.

• Keep your essay type in mind . Remember to keep your hook relevant. An effective hook for an argumentative or descriptive essay format will differ greatly. Therefore, the relevancy of the hook might be even more important than the content it conveys.
• Decide on the purpose of your hook . When unsure how to write a hook for an essay, try asking the following questions: What result are you hoping to get from it? Would you like your readers to be curious? Or, even better, surprised? Perhaps even somewhat caught off guard? Determine the effect you wish to accomplish before selecting a hook.
• Choose a hook at the end of the writing process. Even though it should be the first sentence of your paper, it doesn't mean you should write your hook first. Writing an essay is a long and creative process. So, if you can't think of an effective hook at the beginning, just keep writing according to your plan, and it will eventually come into your head. If you were lucky enough to concoct your hook immediately, double-check your writing to see if it still fits into the whole text and its style once you've finished writing.
• Make it short . The shorter, the better – this rule works for essay hooks. Keeping your hook to a minimum size will ensure that readers will read it at the same moment they start looking at your essay. Even before thinking if they want or don't want to read it, their attention will be captured, and their curiosity will get the best of them. So, they will continue reading the entire text to discover as much as possible.

Now you know how to write a good hook and understand that a solid hook is the difference between someone delving further into your work or abandoning it immediately. With our hook examples for an essay, you can do more than just write a great paper. We do not doubt that you can even write a winning term paper example right away!

Try to become an even better writer with the help of our paper writing service . Give them the freedom to write superior hooks and full essays for you so you may learn from them!

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10 Writing the Introductory Paragraph

The introductory and concluding paragraphs are like the top and bottom buns of a hamburger. They contain basically the same information and are critical for holding the entire piece together.

Learning Objectives

After completing the exercises in this chapter, you will be able to

• identify the three main components of an introductory paragraph
• understand how to “hook” your reader
• identify what background information needs to be included to lead to your thesis

Essay Structure

You learned in the previous chapter that a body paragraph is structured like a hamburger. You can think of your essay as one big burger!

The top bun is the introduction.

The meat and vegetables in the middle are the supporting body paragraphs (several mini-burgers).

The bottom bun is the conclusion.

“ Burger ”  by wildgica   under license CC BY-NC-ND 3.0 .

The top and bottom bun are both made of bread; they contain the same ingredients (or information) but look a little bit different. The “meat” of your argument is in the supporting body paragraphs.

Structure of the Introductory Paragraph

Your introductory paragraph has three main parts:

• background information

Start your introductory paragraph with an interesting comment or question that will get your reader interested in your topic.

• a famous or interesting quotation
• an anecdote
• a startling fact or shocking statistic
• a statement of contrast
• a prediction
• a rhetorical question
• the definition of a critical concept

The hook is the very first thing your audience encounters. A good hook should be just one or two sentences. The goal of your hook is to introduce your reader to your broad topic in an interesting way and make your reader excited to read more.

Even though your hook is at the very beginning of your essay, you should actually write your hook LAST!  It will be much easier for you to write an engaging introduction to your topic after you’ve done all of your research and after you’ve written your body paragraphs and conclusion.

Watch this video for tips on how to write a captivating and relevant hook [1] :

In part two of this video series, Mister Messinger gives some additional tips about writing hooks, explains some common mistakes that beginning writers make, and warns against using rhetorical questions: rhetorical questions, while fairly easy to write, are often poorly done and not engaging.

Your introductory paragraph should also include some background information. Don’t preview the ideas that you’ll introduce in your thesis – this is not the place to introduce your supporting points. Instead of giving your argument, explain the critical facts about your topic that an average reader needs to know in order to be prepared for your argument.

Examples of background information related to the broad topic that readers might need to know:

• brief historical timeline of critical events
• laws or regulations
• definitions
• current status

The information that you need to provide depends heavily on your topic:

• If you are arguing in favour of changing drinking and driving laws, your background information might explain what the current laws are.
• If you are arguing that stem cell research should be more heavily supported by the government, you should explain what the current status of stem cell research is.
• If you are arguing that culture is learned and not inherited, you might start by defining what “culture” is.

Remember that you are writing for a general audience. Don’t assume that your reader has specialized knowledge of your topic.

Remember that you are writing for a general audience, so you shouldn’t assume that your readers have any specific knowledge of your topic or that they know any specialized terminology.  The background information that you provide should give your readers the information they need to understand the argument in your thesis.  Be sure, though, that you don’t *preview* the thesis. Do not include your argument or any information related to your body paragraphs as background information.

Watch this video for more information about how to include relevant background information [2] :

As you know, the thesis is the most important sentence in your essay. It is placed last in the introductory paragraph. The hook and the background information should lead gracefully to the thesis. The thesis concisely states the answer to your research question by stating the specific topic, implying your stance on the topic, and listing the topics of the supporting body paragraphs.

Learning Check

Consider this short introductory paragraph and answer the questions that follow:

Sample Introductory Paragraph

Let’s look at this introductory paragraph that was created by a student for her essay on why the City of Thunder Bay should change its existing laws to allow residents to raise chickens.

The writer’s hook is in blue text. The writer is trying to engage the reader on the topic by providing a surprising contrast. What other hooks could the writer have used instead?

The background information is in orange text. The writer realized that her readers wouldn’t be able to understand her point of view if they didn’t know that the law currently forbids city residents from raising chickens on their property. Is this enough background information for you to understand the thesis? What additional information could the writer have provided?

The thesis is in purple text. The thesis statement is well-written and clearly states all necessary information:

• The specific topic (the ‘chicken bylaw’ in Thunder Bay)
• The writer’s stance (the bylaw should be changed to allow raising chickens within city limits)
• The reasons for the writer’s stance (the underlined clauses in the thesis)

When the writer drafts her body paragraphs, she needs to make sure that each underlined idea is the topic of a paragraph and that those paragraphs are organized in the same order as the ideas are presented in the thesis.

• Mister Messinger. (2020, July 7). Part 1: Discover how to start essay with an A+ hook: STRONG attention grabbing examples [Video]. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvrnVHd-oyM ↵
• Mister Messinger. (2020, August 6). How to start an essay: Add background information to write a strong introduction [Video]. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bd1t2u-HbE&t=223s ↵

According to Wikipedia: A paraphrase is a restatement of the meaning of a text or passage using other words.

According to Wikipedia: Mosaic Plagiarism – Or "patch writing," is when parts of other works are copied without using quotation marks. It can also be when a student keeps the same structure and meaning of an original passage and only uses synonyms

Writing the Introductory Paragraph Copyright © by Confederation College Communications Department and Paterson Library Commons. All Rights Reserved.

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How to Write a Good Thesis Introduction: The Hook

How do you write a good introduction such that your readers will read the rest of your paper? You need to have a good hook. What is a hook and how is it used? This article explains this concept and provides an example.

After reading a lot of articles, essays, narrations, accounts, among other things, I would say I have had a good deal of experience to say how good introductions must be written. I say this not only in reference to writing a thesis, but for any other composition for that matter.

I encountered many tips on how to write introductions. All those tips make sense, but the bottom line of it all is that the one concerned has to develop his or her own style of writing the introduction. A common goal is such that the reader of the introduction should be able to thoroughly understand and appreciate what the researcher wants to do.

So, what really matters in writing the introduction, in this case, to be specific – the thesis introduction? I’m fond of simplifying things so I set forth the vital elements of a good introduction based on introductions I have read that catch my attention. I will start with those elements that really matter. Foremost among those that researchers must consider in writing the introduction is how to write a good “hook.”

How to Write a Good Hook

Have you ever read something that holds your attention after reading just a few lines of words? Things that push you to read on to find out what’s next?  And even read it all the way to the end?

If that’s the case, then you’re hooked! You have read an introduction that has a good “hook.” The “hook” is the writer’s way to attract your attention. It’s not an empty hook. It is something that pulls you around to follow what the author wants you to follow closely, i.e., without you consciously knowing that you were captivated by what you have just read.

Well, how do you write a good “hook?” It’s a matter of style. You can start with something that’s intriguing or an issue that is timely and appealing to people so that they would want to know more about it.

Examples are good ways to demonstrate how things work so here is an example of a “hook” just to give you an idea to help you get started. This is about a true case that occurred about a decade ago. I often use this example in my environmental science class to illustrate the link between the use of pesticides and human health.

Example of a Good Hook

Here is an example of how a good hook should be written:

The high rate of albinism among newly born babies in a mango-growing community alarmed concerned government agencies. A task force from the Department of Health was dispatched to the area to find out the reason behind the occurrence of such condition. Initial queries among the affected families revealed that all mothers who gave birth to albinos ate young mangoes while they were pregnant. Is there something wrong with the mangoes? The group explored further and tried to see if mango consumption is a good lead to undertake an investigation. They asked questions about anything related to mango production.

Several key informants noted that the abnormality started to occur since the mango farmers switched to a new pesticide formula introduced by a well-known manufacturer of consumer chemicals to their community. Is there something in the new pesticide that caused albinism among children in the recent years?

After this hook, you may then proceed and introduce what you intend to do to verify if indeed there is a link between pesticides and albinism.

Don’t you think the above account will spark your curiosity to go on and read what’s next? Well, I hope you do agree with me because the reason there was a high rate of albinism is quite interesting. What did the researchers find in the more rigorous investigation that followed the scoping or exploratory survey ?

To cut the story short, the culprit of albinism among children are the contaminated young, green mangoes which pregnant mothers crave to eat while conceiving. In our local vernacular, we call this “paglilihi sa hilaw na mangga.” As a result, mothers consume mangoes laced with pesticide, which, incidentally, has an ingredient that prevents the production of melanin. Melanin is a natural substance produced by the body that gives color to hair, skin, and the iris of the eye. It is produced by cells in the skin called melanocytes.

Now, that’s something that will make you think. If you are quite mindful of your health and consume lots of fruits and/or vegetables, you need to make sure that those are free of pesticides that can be harmful to your health. It is disturbing to know that many of the common fruits and veggies that we eat have pesticide residues in them.

Is this a good hook for writing a good introduction? Did it spark your curiosity to know more? Write your thoughts below.

© 2014 March 1 P. A. Regoniel

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About the author, patrick regoniel.

Dr. Regoniel, a faculty member of the graduate school, served as consultant to various environmental research and development projects covering issues and concerns on climate change, coral reef resources and management, economic valuation of environmental and natural resources, mining, and waste management and pollution. He has extensive experience on applied statistics, systems modelling and analysis, an avid practitioner of LaTeX, and a multidisciplinary web developer. He leverages pioneering AI-powered content creation tools to produce unique and comprehensive articles in this website.

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How to Write a Hook

How can you hook your reader from the very first line? Today we learn how to write a hook, talk about different types of hooks, and examples!

How do you write a hook? If you can’t answer this deceptively simple question, you might as well stop writing forever. Without a decent hook, the chance of anyone reading your work is statistically zero. With that said, let’s define hooks, discuss how to write a compelling hook, and look at some examples. 

What is a hook in writing?

A hook is a technique used in fiction and non-fiction writing. The term hook refers to the opening sentence or sentences of a work designed to stir interest in a reader and encourage them to continue reading to the end of the article or story. In other words, the hook catches a reader’s attention much like a hook on the end of a fishing line catches a fish with bait. 

Let’s continue this analogy of the fishing hook. You need to bait your hook with a tasty worm or a flashy lure to catch a fish. Writers bait their hooks using techniques as tempting to a reader’s interest as a fat worm is to bass or catfish. These hook techniques include posing an intriguing question or stating a frightening statistic. We’ll talk about all of these techniques later in the article. 

Definition of a Hook:

A hook in writing is a sentence or group of sentences that capture the reader’s attention and interest. It is generally the opening component of an essay, article, or story. It is meant to entice readers so that they will want to keep reading.

The 10 types of hooks

Rhetorical Questions 

A rhetorical question is a question that is asked to make a point rather than to get an answer. Rhetorical questions are often used in speeches and essays, where they are used to engage the audience or emphasize a point. For this reason, rhetorical questions can make an excellent hook. With a rhetorical question hook, a writer can: 

• elicit a particular response from the reader or listener 
• create an emotional reaction 
• emphasize a point 
• make an argument more persuasive 
• engage the reader or listener’s attention 
• generate interest in a topic 

For example, a speaker might ask, “How many of you have ever felt like you didn’t belong?” This is a rhetorical question. The speaker already knows the answer and is not looking for a response from the audience. 

Instead, the question is meant to make the audience stop and think about their own experience. In addition to being used for emphasis, rhetorical questions can create suspense or build tension. For instance, a writer might use a rhetorical question at the end of a chapter to leave readers wondering what will happen next. Whether they create emphasis or suspense, rhetorical questions can be a powerful tool for writers and speakers.

Startling Statistics

By sharing shocking or unexpected data, you can grab your audience’s attention and make them more likely to listen to what you have to say. Whether you’re talking about the scope of a problem or the success of a solution, statistics can help you generate interest and hold your audience’s attention. Here are a few examples of starling statistics from the website  bestlifeonline.com: 

• The average drunk driver drives under the influence more than 80 times before being arrested the first time.  Source:  Centers for Disease Control and Prevention . 
• More than 36 million U.S. adults cannot read above a third-grade level.  Source: ProLiteracy. 
• And more than half a million people in America experience homelessness a night.   Source: U.S Department Of Housing and Urban Development . 

Just be sure that the statistics you use are reliable and from a reputable source. Otherwise, you risk losing credibility with your audience. Using false or unreliable statistics can cause your readers to become skeptical or even hostile. 

For example, a  recent Gallup poll found that only 36% of Americans trust the media . Using statistics from the media in a speech can alienate much of the audience. It’s essential to be careful when using statistics in writing, as they can easily make or break an argument.

Used effectively, however, statistics can be a powerful tool for making your case and getting people to pay attention.

Famous or Inspiring Quotes

The most challenging task for any writer is capturing a concept or idea with the perfect combination of words. Luckily, better writers have come before us; we can borrow their words when we find our own lacking. These quotes can provide both inspiration and comfort, and they can also help us to understand our own thoughts and feelings better. Using quotations in your hook can be an excellent way to connect with your audience and add depth to your work.

Here are a few resources where you can find the perfect quote for your next essay or speech: 

• BrainyQuote:  separates quotes into several functional categories. 
• QuotesonDesign:  generates random inspirational quotes with the click of your mouse. 
• Thinkexist:  a searchable database of quotes based on topic, author, or keyword. 
• Goodreads:  Goodreads is one of the best resources for quotes from famous authors. 
• QuoteLand:  another searchable database with the added benefit of live discussion boards. 
• Wikiquote:  a free online compendium of sourced quotes that links to Wikipedia for further information. 
• Quotery:  search for specific quotes or explore random quotes by topic.  

Paint a Picture 

Engage your readers’ imagination with this hook by painting a picture in their minds. This technique works well when you’re writing a personal narrative or other non-fiction narratives. Take the highest moment of tension in your story, the climax, and describe it by appealing to all five senses.

However, what you don’t want to do is explicitly tell your reader what’s happening or the outcome of the event. Instead, you use foreshadowing and a bit of  non-linear storytelling  to give your reader an enticing hint at what is coming in your text. 

To use this hook technique, take the highest point of tension in your text and describe it using as much sensory detail as possible. 

What does the climax of your story: 

• Smell like?
• Taste like?
• Sound like?

You may not want to use all five senses; in fact, it is better not to give your reader enough detail and let their imagination do the rest. 

Tell a Story 

A good story can hook readers in and keep them engaged from start to finish. A story can provide insight into the human experience, whether it be humorous, heartwarming, or even tragic. When used as a hook in writing, a story can help set the tone and give readers a glimpse into what is to come. 

Done poorly, however, a story can be dry and dull, quickly losing the interest of even the most dedicated reader. As such, it is crucial to strike the right balance when writing a story as a hook. Whether personal or fictional, choose a story that is interesting and engaging and will give readers a reason to stick around until the end.

Extreme Statements 

Extreme statements are one type of hook that can be used effectively to engage readers. By making a bold claim or assertion, writers can pique readers’ curiosity and prompt them to want to know more. For example, imagine reading the following opening sentence:

“By 2050, the world’s population will reach 9 billion, and we will not have enough food to feed half of this number.” 

This statement is shocking and provocative. It immediately raises questions in readers’ minds, like “How did the author come up with this number?” and “What consequences will this have for the planet?” By starting with an extreme statement, writers can set the stage for an informative and engaging piece.

Tell a Joke

Although the folly of many a Best Man, a good joke can be a great way to start a piece of writing. Not only does it grab the reader’s attention, but it also sets the tone for the rest of the article. When used effectively, a joke can help to establish a rapport with the reader and create a sense of intimacy. A joke, done poorly, can come across as forced or tacky.

The key is to choose a joke that is relevant to the topic at hand, and that will resonate with the audience. When in doubt, it is always best to err on the side of caution and avoid alienating your reader with an off-color joke. With a little effort, you can use humor to your advantage and hook your reader from the very first sentence.

Evoke a Feeling/Emotion 

One way to hook a reader is to evoke an emotion in your readers. Whether you are writing about a personal experience or trying to raise awareness about an important issue, if you can connect with your readers emotionally, you will be more likely to engage them in your writing. 

To do this, you must be clear about what emotion you want to evoke and how you plan to do it. Once you have a plan, try to be concise and transparent in your writing. Remember, the goal is not to overwhelm your readers with emotions but to give them a taste of what you are talking about so that they will want to continue reading.

Personal Stories

A personal story can be a powerful way to hook readers and keep them engaged. By sharing something from your own life, you can provide a relatable and authentic perspective that helps to connect with your audience. 

Whether you’re writing about your struggles or triumphs, sharing a personal story can help to create a strong emotional response in your readers. In addition, personal stories can also be used to illustrate more significant points or themes. 

By sharing a specific example, you can make abstract concepts more concrete and accessible for your readers. Whether you’re writing an essay, memoir, or blog post, incorporating a personal story can effectively engage your audience and communicate your message.

Use a Metaphor or Analogy

When writing, a metaphor can help explain an idea or concept. Using an analogy, you can give your reader a frame of reference that they can understand. For example, if you were trying to explain what it feels like to be in love, you could say it is like this:

 “A rose’s beauty draws you in, but be careful its thorns can prick.” 

Using this metaphor, you can give your reader a way to understand the experience of being in love: beautiful and painful. 

Analogies can also be used to make complex ideas more understandable. For instance, if you were trying to explain quantum mechanics, you could say it is:

“Like trying to see in the dark: we know something is there, but we can’t see it.” 

By providing this analogy, you can give your reader a way to visualize what quantum mechanics is and how it works. In both cases, using a metaphor or analogy can help make your writing more engaging and understandable.

How to write a hook sentence in six steps 

Step 1: Choose the correct technique for your hook.

First, you need to decide what kind of hook you will write. This choice has everything to do with the tone and genre of your writing. For instance, you probably want to avoid using a joke hook in a scholarly paper. On the flip side, a startling statistic wouldn’t make sense to open a wedding speech.

Step 2: Make sure it’s in the right place. 

A hook is meant to grab your readers’ attention and compel them to read the rest of your text. So, the hook should be at the beginning of your writing, with nothing else preceding it. 

Ok, the title will come before your hook. However, with the rise of clickbait, titles have become hooks in their own right. Start with your hook, no exceptions! 

Step 3: Write a hook that is the correct length. 

Hooks are proportional to the length of text you’re writing. So, a twenty-paragraph article for a magazine or newspaper may have a hook one or two paragraphs long. However, if you’re writing a four or five-paragraph essay for your high school theme paper, your hook will only last a sentence, maybe two. 

What you don’t want is a two-paragraph long hook in five paragraph essay. The best hook is a short one that is to the point. 

Step 4: Set the tone .

A good hook can also help set the tone for your writing. If you’re writing something lighthearted and funny, your hook should reflect that. On the other hand, if you’re writing something more serious, ensure your hook is also appropriately toned.

Step 5: Know your audience .

It’s important to know who you’re writing for when crafting your hook. What will resonate with your audience? What will grab their attention? Keep your audience in mind as you write so you can tailor your hook accordingly.

Step 6: Transition into the purpose of your writing.   

What comes after you hook? Your thesis! Once you’ve hooked your reader, it’s essential to tell them, in a short thesis statement, what the purpose of your text is. Refrain from making sure readers guess what the main idea of your essay is. Tell them what you’re going to tell them. A good thesis statement will focus your writing and keep your readers engaged. 

Hook examples:

Dr. Martin Luther King- I Have a Dream

Five score years ago,  a great American , in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the  Emancipation Proclamation . This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity.

In the opening lines of his famed speech, King alludes to another famous speech- Abraham Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address. By referencing a speech made in the aftermath of the bloodiest battle of the American Civil War, King reminds his audience of the sacrifices made in the long struggle for equality and civil rights. 

Sojourner Truth- Ain’t I A Woman?

Well children … Well there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that betwixt the Negroes of the South and the women at the North all talking about rights these white men going to be in a fix pretty soon.

Sojourner Truth famously improvised her speech, Ain’t I A Woman. She opens with a bit of humor and sets the tone for her straightforward yet powerful words. 

Carl Sagen- Pale Blue Dot

Look again at that dot. That’s here. That’s home. That’s us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives.

Sagen reminds his readers of the startlingly insignificant reality of our world when contrasted to the vast universe. 

Amanda Gorman- The Hill We Climb

When day comes we ask ourselves, where can we find light in this never-ending shade?

With the opening lines of her poem, Gorman creates a beautiful metaphor comparing a transition during political and social upheaval to the dawn of a new day. 

Jamie Oliver- Teach Every Child About Food

Sadly, in the next 18 minutes… four Americans that are alive will be dead from the food that they eat.

This fact is shocking and focuses the audience’s attention on Oliver’s subject- the obesity epidemic in America. 

The bottom line on hooks- make it short, memorable, and if you can’t think of anything… use a quote. That’s all on hooks for now, but if you liked this article, and found it helpful, do us a favor and share it! 

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• Testimonials

In an essay, which comes first: the hook or the thesis?

An eighth grader asked me for help writing a school-assigned essay.  Her teacher had given the class a fill-in-the-blanks organizer.  It was incredibly detailed.  In the introduction area was a blank with the word “hook,” and below it another blank with the word “thesis.”  For each of the two body paragraph areas were the words “citation, “explanation,” “citation,” and “explanation.”  At the end was the word “conclusion.”

“I don’t buy it,” I said.

I asked her what she had written first, the hook quotation or the thesis.  “The hook,” she said.

Of course.  This student was making three mistakes that I see over and over in student essays.

First, she did not write the thesis first.  In an essay, the most important sentence is the thesis.  That is the first sentence to write. Every other sentence needs to support the ideas in that thesis sentence.  If you don’t know what ideas are in the thesis, how can you write about them?

Second, she wrote the hook first, thinking (as her teachers may have told her) that the hook is where the essay begins.  The hook is where the reader begins reading an essay.  But it is not where the writer begins writing an essay. A good essay is thought though and written out of order.  The proper sequence in which to write an essay (after you have organized it) is

• Thesis, first;
• body paragraph topic sentences, second;
• detail sentences in the body paragraphs, third. These sentences back up the body paragraph topic sentences which in turn back up the thesis;
• introduction, fourth, including the hook if there is one; and
• conclusion, last.

The third mistake my student made was perhaps the most serious of all:  she didn’t recognize that her chosen hook did not introduce the ideas of her thesis.  She thought that her hook was so clever (and it was) that it didn’t matter if it was related to the ideas of her thesis.  It does matter.

Over and over, I work with students who focus on the structure of an essay rather than the substance of the essay.  Their essays are like Academy Award winning actresses in gorgeous gowns, sparkling jewelry, and splendid coifs whose speeches are either hollow or off-topic.

I asked my student to rewrite her hook.  She did because she wants a good grade, and I’m a teacher, so I probably know what I am advising her.  But I wonder if she understands that her original hook was irrelevant to the main idea of her essay.

Looking for a writing teacher for your child?  Contact me through this website.  I currently teach students in four states and one other country.

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How to write a hook sentence

• January 17, 2024

Do you want your reader to wonder what’s next in your essay and keep reading? Then you need something to grab the reader’s attention: the hook sentence.

What is a hook sentence?

Essential steps of writing a hook sentence

• Define the purpose of your essay. What are you writing for? Who are you addressing?
• Choose your essay type. For example, do you want to inform or persuade the reader of something?
• Create a striking first sentence that fits the purpose and type of your essay.

Here are the different types of essay hooks that will keep readers interested in your essay. 

Question hook

If you start your essay introduction with a question hook, it’s easier to engage the reader as they’ll be curious about the question and keep reading. 

As the name suggests, you simply start your essay with a question to readers. Now look at the example below.

Question hook example

Introduction

How did people create a concept such as pre-feminism? Why did people read ancient tragedies and perceive those such ideas? Hook sentence with a question to interest the reader. The thing is, Sophocles wrote several tragedies long before feminism was a concept. In ancient Greek myths, Gods and Goddesses lived in the mountain Olympus, and men prayed to them for help. A Goddess was superior to immortal men. For example, men prayed Athena to win battles. Now, the question is, why did men show respect to the Gods and Goddesses but perceive immortal women as inferior to immortal men. Antigone was one of these immortal women, who showed her bravery against death and King Creon’s law. Sophocles’ Antigone tragedy is seen as a source of the pre-feminism concept. ....(introduction continues)

When it comes to question hooks

Statistic hook.

A statistic hook can instantly engage your reader, especially  in explanatory essays , motivating them to keep reading and learn more. 

Feel free to use different form of statistics such as numbers, decimals, and/or percentages to support the information you provide.

Statistic hook example

According to research, %30 of all adolescents in the United States experience anxiety disorders (Nutt para.15) Hook sentence with a statistic More and more people, especially teenagers, suffer from anxiety every day. It is a severe mental health problem, and the sheer scale of anxiety in today's youth is horrifying. Before taking any action, governments and health institutes should detect its causes and impacts on teenagers. In order to understand the situation better, this paper identifies the causes of teenager anxiety and describes its effects on their lives. It is clear that, in general, people's adverse experiences are the most significant cause of teenager anxiety, and it primarily affects their everyday lives destructively. ....(Essay continues with body paragraphs)

Quotation hook

Starting your essay with a quote or citation from a famous person can grab the reader’s attention. Make the quote relevant to your topic and explain it more for readers to grasp it. 

This type of hook can especially be useful for biography essays . Imagine starting with a quote of a famous person that you’re writing a biography about. That would intrigue your reader and make them read more. 

Now look at the example below: 

Quotation hook example

“Today’s wars are mostly undeclared, undefined, and inglorious affairs typically involving multiple parties, foreign governments, proxy forces, covert methods, and novel weapons” (Tisdall, para. 7). Hook sentence with a quote So true, isn’t it. There are, actually, two main parties in today’s wars; the ones who kill and the ones who die! Today’s wars are not the wars of land, dignity, or even religion -although it is not a matter of fact to start a war for-. Wars today are all about money, corporations, and sales.

Pro tip on choosing quotes

A story hook is used in the introduction of an essay with a personal story or an incident to capture the reader’s interest and compel them to continue reading.

This type of hooks are really useful for narrative or descriptive essays where you need to captivate the reader by storytelling.  Or simply use them when you’re writing a short story 🙂 

Story hook example

When I was around the age of ten, my great grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Hook sentence with a story telling style I began to slowly see a change in her actions. She began to slowly lose her memory. It could be anything from forgetting to put more bubble gum into her purse to forgetting where she was. Things progressed and she began to forget who her children were and she would wonder out of the house to try and get “home.” Her progression of Alzheimer's lasted around six years, and throughout the six years she had went through the seven stages of Alzheimer’s. Not only did this affect my great grandmother’s life, but the people around her as well. Alzheimer’s Disease, is named after Dr. Alois Alzheimer. In 1906 Dr. Alzheimer had been examining the brain of a woman who had died from and unusual mental illness, something never seen before.

Statement hook

Statement hook is a sentence that makes an assertion about your subject. It is an excellent strategy because it doesn’t matter if your reader agrees or disagrees. What matters most is how you support your claim. 

As you see from the example below, you sound really bold  with this type of hook, so it’s better to use them in persuasive or argumentative essays, where you need to sound confident and try convincing your reader. 

Statement hook example

To refuse vaccines is to not fear death and disease. Hook sentence with a statement A growing number of people have been refusing immunization for their children and themselves because they are afraid of possible harm. They do not realize that vaccines have prevented disease worldwide. Vaccines have more benefits than risks because they eliminate and significantly prevent disease and their risks are often exaggerated or false.

So after all, crafting a great hook sentence takes time and effort, but the results can be incredibly rewarding in terms of increased reader engagement. During the process, keep in mind you make use of paraphrasing tools to pick what sounds the best for your audience.

By using one or more of the various types of hook sentences, you can effectively engage your audience from the very beginning and compel them to continue reading.

Key takeaways

• A hook sentence captures the reader's attention and make them want to keep reading.
• A hook sentence can be a question, a quote, a surprising fact, or a story.
• A hook sentence should be relevant to the topic of the article or essay.
• A hook sentence should be concise and clear.
• Experiment with different types of hooks to find the one that works best for your writing style and audience.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is a good hook sentence.

A good hook sentence always captivates your reader and make them read more. 

What are the common hook types?

Quote, statistic, story, statement, and questions hooks are the most common in many essay types. 

How to write a transition from a hook to a thesis?

First write your hook that is relevant to your main idea, then dig deeper into your hook by providing background and context. Finally, state your thesis statement and continue with the body paragraphs .

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• How to Write a Thesis Statement | 4 Steps & Examples

How to Write a Thesis Statement | 4 Steps & Examples

Published on January 11, 2019 by Shona McCombes . Revised on August 15, 2023 by Eoghan Ryan.

A thesis statement is a sentence that sums up the central point of your paper or essay . It usually comes near the end of your introduction .

Your thesis will look a bit different depending on the type of essay you’re writing. But the thesis statement should always clearly state the main idea you want to get across. Everything else in your essay should relate back to this idea.

You can write your thesis statement by following four simple steps:

• Start with a question
• Write your initial answer
• Develop your answer
• Refine your thesis statement

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Table of contents

What is a thesis statement, placement of the thesis statement, step 1: start with a question, step 2: write your initial answer, step 3: develop your answer, step 4: refine your thesis statement, types of thesis statements, other interesting articles, frequently asked questions about thesis statements.

A thesis statement summarizes the central points of your essay. It is a signpost telling the reader what the essay will argue and why.

The best thesis statements are:

• Concise: A good thesis statement is short and sweet—don’t use more words than necessary. State your point clearly and directly in one or two sentences.
• Contentious: Your thesis shouldn’t be a simple statement of fact that everyone already knows. A good thesis statement is a claim that requires further evidence or analysis to back it up.
• Coherent: Everything mentioned in your thesis statement must be supported and explained in the rest of your paper.

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The thesis statement generally appears at the end of your essay introduction or research paper introduction .

The spread of the internet has had a world-changing effect, not least on the world of education. The use of the internet in academic contexts and among young people more generally is hotly debated. For many who did not grow up with this technology, its effects seem alarming and potentially harmful. This concern, while understandable, is misguided. The negatives of internet use are outweighed by its many benefits for education: the internet facilitates easier access to information, exposure to different perspectives, and a flexible learning environment for both students and teachers.

You should come up with an initial thesis, sometimes called a working thesis , early in the writing process . As soon as you’ve decided on your essay topic , you need to work out what you want to say about it—a clear thesis will give your essay direction and structure.

You might already have a question in your assignment, but if not, try to come up with your own. What would you like to find out or decide about your topic?

For example, you might ask:

After some initial research, you can formulate a tentative answer to this question. At this stage it can be simple, and it should guide the research process and writing process .

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Now you need to consider why this is your answer and how you will convince your reader to agree with you. As you read more about your topic and begin writing, your answer should get more detailed.

In your essay about the internet and education, the thesis states your position and sketches out the key arguments you’ll use to support it.

The negatives of internet use are outweighed by its many benefits for education because it facilitates easier access to information.

In your essay about braille, the thesis statement summarizes the key historical development that you’ll explain.

The invention of braille in the 19th century transformed the lives of blind people, allowing them to participate more actively in public life.

A strong thesis statement should tell the reader:

• Why you hold this position
• What they’ll learn from your essay
• The key points of your argument or narrative

The final thesis statement doesn’t just state your position, but summarizes your overall argument or the entire topic you’re going to explain. To strengthen a weak thesis statement, it can help to consider the broader context of your topic.

These examples are more specific and show that you’ll explore your topic in depth.

Your thesis statement should match the goals of your essay, which vary depending on the type of essay you’re writing:

• In an argumentative essay , your thesis statement should take a strong position. Your aim in the essay is to convince your reader of this thesis based on evidence and logical reasoning.
• In an expository essay , you’ll aim to explain the facts of a topic or process. Your thesis statement doesn’t have to include a strong opinion in this case, but it should clearly state the central point you want to make, and mention the key elements you’ll explain.

If you want to know more about AI tools , college essays , or fallacies make sure to check out some of our other articles with explanations and examples or go directly to our tools!

• Ad hominem fallacy
• Post hoc fallacy
• Appeal to authority fallacy
• False cause fallacy
• Sunk cost fallacy

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• Write a College Essay
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• College Essay Format & Structure
• Comparing and Contrasting in an Essay

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A thesis statement is a sentence that sums up the central point of your paper or essay . Everything else you write should relate to this key idea.

The thesis statement is essential in any academic essay or research paper for two main reasons:

• It gives your writing direction and focus.
• It gives the reader a concise summary of your main point.

Without a clear thesis statement, an essay can end up rambling and unfocused, leaving your reader unsure of exactly what you want to say.

Follow these four steps to come up with a thesis statement :

• Ask a question about your topic .
• Write your initial answer.
• Develop your answer by including reasons.
• Refine your answer, adding more detail and nuance.

The thesis statement should be placed at the end of your essay introduction .

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Writing an introduction and thesis.

Starting the first paragraph can be one of the most daunting tasks of essay writing, but it does not need to be. Investing some time in planning can save much anxiety and frustration later.

An effective introductory paragraph will engage the reader with some reason to learn about your topic and will warm him or her up to your topic with important background information and ideas before stating your essay’s controlling idea (thesis.) It should include the following:

• Hook (also called a Lead-in, Opener, or Attention Grabber) that will arouse the interest of as many people possible in your target audience group.
• Identification and general discussion of the topic , including why the topic is important and worthy of analysis.
• Background info (e.g. history of the controversy, or summary of the literature/ articles.) This is any information necessary to lead down to your controlling idea on the subject, including the who , what , when , where , why , and how.
• Explanation that narrows your focus down to your thesis.
• Thesis (your controlling idea for the whole essay), possibly including , preceded by or followed by a brief indication of your subtopics. (This latter part is sometimes called a blueprint, roadmap of reasons, forecast of points, etc.).

It is essential that the first sentence “hooks” your intended reader with something that is both interesting at first glance and relevant to the focus of your essay.  Try one or a combination of the following hooks:

• Example: The number of emergency room visits associated with energy drinks has more than doubled in this country in the last five years, from about 10,000 to over 20,000.
• Example: There I was, stranded with no cell phone beside a remote Colorado road in mid-January. I had long since lost feeling in my feet, and, peeling back my socks, I saw to my horror that my toes were completely black with frostbite.
• Example: For a first-time parent, a child is a megaphone, proclaiming that he or she is not the center of the universe anymore.
• Example: An important purpose of fiction is to reveal truth.
• Example: Has anyone you know ever been the victim of identity theft?
• Example: Victor Hugo, the author of Les Miserables , once declared, “ He who opens a school door closes a prison.”

Options for that Middle Material

You might have a great idea for your hook and even a tentative thesis, but what about the sentences that are supposed to go between them? How are you going to meaningfully and smoothly bridge this gap? It might depend on what kind of essay you are writing. Here are some suggestions, though don’t feel locked into that one option just because it is labeled for your type of essay. Also , be aware that some of these options might naturally contain their own hooks.

• For a Position/Argument/Persuasive Essay : Be sure to establish that a real controversy exists before giving your position in the thesis. What is the issue? Why do people disagree about it? Are there more than just two sides? How long has this controversy existed? What are the ‘roots’ or brief history of the conflict? Lead down to your position (thesis), and then your body paragraphs will be the reasons for your position.
• For a Solution Essay : Highlight the problem or need. Get the reader to understand that one exists. What is it? Why is it a problem or need? How long has it been around? Who and/or what is affected? Then work down to the thesis, which in this case is your proposed solution. The body paragraphs will then be breaking down your solution into its reasons and/or steps.
• For a Compare/Contrast Essay : If the main point of your essay is to show how two things are significantly similar, consider first explaining that people often perceive them as completely different and unrelatable—why is that? If the main point of your essay is to show how two things are significantly different, consider first explaining that people often perceive them as essentially the same—explain why and then lead down to your thesis.
• For a Current Events or History Essay : Consider beginning at a different point in time than the one focused on in the body of your paper. For example, if your paper is to focus on a specific current event/situation between Israelis and Palestinians, you might lead in with a brief overview of the groups’ long-term history. Alternately, if the focus of the paper is on a historical event or period, you might begin with discussion about the present-day region or nation, or you could begin at a point even further in the past that led up to the period of focus.
• For an Illustrative/Descriptive Essay : If your task is to describe a person, place, thing, process, or concept, then you must begin by motivating the reader as to his/her/its appeal or importance (as with any introduction.) For more personal, informal essays, you can relate your own earliest experiences with that person, place, or thing, possibly explaining your first impressions. For more formal essays, highlight his/her/its significance to a larger group of people or to a larger purpose/function.
• For a Research/Expository Essay : Explain who is/has been affected, and how much or often. Also be sure to define any major terms that you will be using throughout the paper if they are not necessarily understood by your intended audience.
• For a Cause/Effect Essay : If your essay will be focusing on the causes of a particular event, condition, or situation, explain who or what is affected by it. How prevalent is it? If the focus of the essay is on the effects of something, you might provide background by discussing what leads/has led up to it (its causes).
• For an Analytical Essay (e.g. literature, philosophy, article response): Before diving into interpretation and analysis, use your introduction to announce the original work and author/theorist, giving background about either or both. Consider a brief summary of the story, concept, or major ideas of the piece, then narrow down to the specific ideas you will be working with in the essay.

A Quick Thesis Formula

Tips for your thesis.

A thesis should be as clear and specific as possible, yet still able to be developed in different ways through your body paragraphs.   Avoid overused, general terms and abstractions: “Communism collapsed due to societal discontent.” Communism where? What does “societal discontent” mean? Society can be discontent about anything! Here is an improvement: “Co mmunism collapsed in Eastern Europe because of the ruling elite’s inability to address the economic needs of the people .”

The Topic is relatively specific: communism in Eastern Europe. Also, the Main Point (italicized segment) is clear. Now in this example, the Details (how the body paragraphs will be broken down) are only hinted at, but that might be enough for some courses as long as you have strong, guiding topic sentences that connect back to these key words from the thesis.

In some courses though, especially ENGL 1010, you might need to absolutely spell out the breakdown of subtopics in your thesis (a forecasting thesis). So here is an example of one, and to make it even more ENGL 1010-friendly, it is an argumentative thesis. The Topic , Main Point , and Details are indicated:  “The public sale of fireworks in Pennsylvania should be prohibited because of fireworks’ danger to people , noise disturbance , and potential damage to property .”

Thesis Pitfalls

Check to make sure your thesis is not…

• Too broad or general: “Drugs have a negative effect on society.”
• Too big to be adequately covered within the assigned length of a paper: “Warfare in Europe has greatly evolved through the centuries with many different forms.”
• Too narrow a focus to sustain an essay of the required length: “All students should have an alarm clock to wake them up in the morning.”
• A question: “What will the United States do to curb gun violence?”
• An obvious idea: “Spending more money than you earn results in debt.”
• Combative, insulting, assuming, or confrontational: “Gun nuts need to understand that they don’t need to have so many guns because violence is evil.”
• A basic definition of a word: “Sexism is   prejudice or discrimination based on sex or gender .”
• Lacking any strong stand: “Legislation surrounding same-sex marriage is a hotly debated issue today.”
• Stating a fact, offering little room for expansion: “Sixty-seven percent o f pregnant women have claimed to have a higher level of smell sensitivity.”
• Containing more than one main idea: “Asbestos abatement is a complicated process, and it is also important to check one’s home for radon.” (A thesis can have more than one idea, but the hierarchy should be clear. That is, one should be easily identifiable as the main idea, while the others are clearly supporting it).”

Other Introduction Paragraph PItfalls

• Writing a very attention-grabbing hook, but failing to connect its meaning with the rest of the paragraph.
• Going too deep into your reasons or subtopics within your introduction, and so setting yourself up to be repetitive later in the essay.
• Opening with a cliché statement or a very obvious idea.
• Referring to your essay or referring to yourself as the writer of the essay (“In this essay I will tell you about…”)
• Relying immediately on a reference source to define your subject for you. (“According to Webster’s Dictionary…” or “Wikipedia states…”)

A Final Word

Remember, your introductory paragraph sets the tone for your essay and is your first impression, so it is worth taking your time on. But don’t worry if it does not come off sounding exactly right the first time. We are all learners as writers! It is natural and necessary to return to your introduction for revision after you have drafted the rest of your essay, just to make sure it is still consistent with what the paper has evolved into.

We at the Learning Commons are here to help at any stage of the writing process. Please come in anytime to go over what you have so far , even if you haven’t written anything down yet . We can help you find your direction. Also check out our handout s “Building Body Paragraphs” and “ Writing a Conclusion , ” among many others . We hope you take joy in your writing as you investigate a subject that interests you and that you also have the chance to express yourself well.

• Adaptations for format / ADA compliance. Authored by : Dann Coble. Provided by : Corning Community College. License : CC0: No Rights Reserved
• Authored by : Keith Ward. Provided by : Corning Community College. License : Public Domain: No Known Copyright

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Grab Your Reader’s Attention by Writing the Perfect Hook

In a book containing 100,000 words, one sentence has the power to grab your readers or get your book sent to the DNF pile forever. That is, of course, the first one.

The first line of a story has a lot of responsibility, and it’s this beginning where we have the opportunity to sink our claws into our readers with a solid hook.

In this article, we’re going to learn all there is to know about writing hooks, which includes:

• What a hook is and why it’s important
• The different types of hooks
• Techniques for writing hooks and pitfalls to avoid

And, by the time we’re done, you’re going to know exactly how to reel your readers in.

What is a Hook in Writing?

Want to be let in on a little secret? You’ve already read a hook in this article. In fact, you’ve now read two .

A hook is an opening sentence or paragraph in a piece of writing intended to capture the reader's interest.

Usually, the hook only refers to the first sentence of the entire piece, but that’s not necessarily the case. Chapters and scenes in books and subsections of articles (like this one) can all have hooks, too.

The whole point of this style of opening is to, as the name suggests, hook your reader so they’re compelled to read on. On top of that, this type of opening can:

• Set the tone of your novel
• Establish the narrative voice of your writing
• Provide a glimpse into the story

We all know first impressions are important in life; in writing, they’re even more crucial.

Hooks in Different Styles of Writing

To be clear, this article will be discussing hooks in fiction writing—specifically the start of your book—but the principles could be applied after a scene or chapter break, too.

However, it’s worth quickly looking at the application of hooks in different forms of writing.

Fiction: A hook can serve to introduce the plot, characters, or setting in an intriguing way.

Non-fiction: A solid hook can present a compelling fact, example, question, or statement to draw readers into the topic.

Blog posts and articles: Use this kind of opener to address the reader's immediate need or curiosity to keep them reading.

Remember, no matter what the style of writing, you always want to write a darn compelling first line.

The Importance of a Compelling Hook

A hook isn’t a hook if it isn’t captivating. I mean, that’s the whole point, right?

Consider this famous opener from George Orwell’s 1984 :

“It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.”

This hook is pulling double duty. First, it gives us important information to understand the setting of the story: a bright cold day in April. That on its own wouldn’t be very compelling, though.

Then Orwell hits us with “and the clocks were striking thirteen.” I mean, come on! That’s a universally strange thing. Clocks don’t strike thirteen; they can’t. So we’re immediately introduced to an extremely unusual scenario that forces us to ask what’s going on.

A sense of anticipation or curiosity is the bedrock of a compelling hook. An effective opening like this, after all, determines whether the reader is intrigued enough to continue. Orwell’s first line has been good enough to compel countless readers to keep going.

At the risk of sounding like a cranky old man, the role of hooks is also more important than ever. Readers have shorter attention spans than those who cracked open (or loaded up) books in the past. Objectively, digital media has made it harder for us to focus, so it’s incumbent on you to grab onto your audience.

On top of that, the sheer volume of media out there, books included, means your first impression needs to convince readers not to put your book down and get their entertainment hit somewhere else.

With that in mind, let’s understand hooks better so we can get them right.

Types of Hooks

Not all hooks are created equal. I mean, they all equally rock and help enthrall your reader, but they look different and go about that mission in different ways.

We’re going to look at them in detail, but the different kinds of hooks are as follows:

• Narrative hooks
• Descriptive hooks
• Question hooks
• Shocking statement hooks
• Anecdotal hooks

Let’s dive into each one.

Narrative Hooks

"Last night I dreamt I went to Manderley again." –Daphne du Maurier, Rebecca

Narrative hooks start the story off at a crucial moment, in the midst of or hinting at conflict, or by providing a sense of intrigue.

I haven’t read Rebecca before. Heck, at the risk of sounding uncultured, I hadn’t heard of it before starting this article. But that hook immediately provides a sense of intrigue : where is Manderley? Why is it so important? Again ?

Narrative hooks like this one serve to immediately immerse your reader in your story. It’s ideal for instant engagement.

Descriptive Hooks

"The village of Holcomb stands on the high wheat plains of western Kansas, a lonesome area that other Kansans call 'out there.'" –Truman Capote, In Cold Blood

In Cold Blood is a non-fiction book, but I think that opening line would make for a killer hook in any mystery or thriller novel.

Descriptive hooks, true to their name, use vivid imagery to paint a scene or describe a character in a way that captivates your reader’s senses. These types of hooks create a strong visual impression to establish either the setting or a particular atmosphere.

Capote does this perfectly. We get a little bit of detail about the high wheat plains, but “a lonesome area that other Kansans call ‘out there’” puts in more legwork than five lines of description ever could.

Question Hooks

"Who is John Galt?" –Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

One of the most powerful ways to write a hook for a reader is to ask them a question. Now, this style of hook doesn’t necessarily work with every POV or narrative style, but when it works, it works.

That’s because it encourages the curious reader to keep reading to find out the answer. Not that you’ll usually provide that answer in the next line or chapter, as is the case with Atlas Shrugged , but the curiosity can become insatiable in your reader.

Shocking Statement Hooks

“It was a pleasure to burn." –Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

The best way to immediately grab someone’s attention and elicit an immediate, near-primal response, is to throw something shocking at them.

A shocking statement hook does just that, knocking your reader off balance from the first words of your story. This can be done with a startling or even a controversial statement.

In Fahrenheit 451 , that opening line is wild. What—or who—is burning? Why was it so enjoyable? This kind of hook forces you to ask questions about the situation and find out more.

Anecdotal Hooks

"I am a sick man... I am a spiteful man." –Fyodor Dostoevsky, “Notes from Underground”

Anecdotal hooks open with a short, amusing, or interesting personal story or fact. This kind of opening personalizes the story, making it relatable or at least interesting for the reader.

It can also introduce a sort of mystery, as Dostoevsky does. That hook introduces us to an anti-hero character who knows he is sick but, as we learn, intentionally avoids treatment out of spite. It’s equal parts powerful and compelling.

Writing a Hook That Grabs Your Readers' Attention

Finally, armed with all this knowledge, let’s chat about how we can craft our own captivating openers.

Techniques for Crafting a Hook

I’m going to provide you with a bunch of techniques you can use in your writing, but there’s something you need to keep in mind: not all of these techniques work for every hook. That shouldn’t come as too much of a surprise after reading about the different types of openings—after all, question and descriptive hooks are structured very differently. 

But the following advice should point you in the right direction and arm you for the hook you want to use.

Create a sense of mystery - Introducing a question, puzzle, or ambiguous statement all but forces your reader to keep going. Most of us need to know the answer or risk being haunted by that mystery for many sleepless nights. This could extend to introducing an unresolved situation or a character who is clearly hiding something.

Go all in on word choice - While purple prose and vivid details could slow the middle of a paragraph to a crawl, I encourage you to take out all the stops in a good hook. Be precise and intentional with the language you use and choose words that will fascinate your reader. (Think about the use of “pleasure” in the hook of Fahrenheit 451 .)

Provoke thoughts and contrary opinions - If you’re going to ask a question, consider one that either piques interest or challenges assumptions your reader might have. Bonus points if you frame a dilemma or a moral question that is tied to your larger themes.

Leverage emotion and relatability - While you’re crafting an intense opener , remember that the best hooks are relatable. If you ask a question or introduce a scene, your reader needs some sort of attachment to care about it.

Experiment with different tones and styles - You have some leeway in the tone of your hook, but remember that it’s introducing the rest of your novel’s style, too. So don’t start a dark fantasy with a fart joke, but consider a politically charged one. Also try out the different types of hooks to see which works best.

Potential Hook Mistakes to Look Out For

Not to stress you out, but your opening line is one of the most important in your book. So keep your eyes peeled for some of these common pitfalls when writing hooks.

Information overload - If you’re providing details with a descriptive, narrative, or anecdotal hook, don’t infodump on your reader. Tease just enough to encourage them to keep reading.

Being too vague - Being mysterious doesn’t mean withholding all information. Generic statements and clichés don’t engage readers; they actually turn them off your book altogether.

Not connecting to the plot - If your hook doesn’t align with your plot or your theme , your reader will get grumpy. Ensure the hook is as relevant as it is catchy.

Bonus Tip: Refine Your Hook

Lastly, I encourage everyone to get specific feedback on your hook. Talk to your editor . Ask your beta readers and your critique partner for their thoughts. Ask your non-writing friends if the hook is effective at all.

Not everyone will have great feedback, but if you constantly get told your hook isn’t doing its job, consider reworking it.

Hooks Are Just One Part of Writing Craft

Don’t get me wrong, hooks are important. And stressful. And fun. And effective.

But you’ve just read a whole article about one line in your story. There are thousands more for you to write.

Luckily we’ve got your back. There are hundreds of articles at DabbleU , a free e-book to help you write your first draft, an entire community of writers—Dabblers and non-Dabblers alike—over at the Story Craft Café , and a non-spammy newsletter to help your craft.

All for free, no matter where you are in your writing journey. How’s that for compelling?

Doug Landsborough can’t get enough of writing. Whether freelancing as an editor, blog writer, or ghostwriter, Doug is a big fan of the power of words. In his spare time, he writes about monsters, angels, and demons under the name D. William Landsborough. When not obsessing about sympathetic villains and wondrous magic, Doug enjoys board games, horror movies, and spending time with his wife, Sarah.

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Eyeballing Squibler but still curious about the other writing programs out there? Here's everything you need to know about the top Squibler alternatives.

Trying to find your ideal writing software? Examine two top contenders side by side in this comprehensive guide.

What is creative nonfiction? Oh, it's only a super fun way to tell the truth. Learn more about what it is, how to write it, and where you've seen it right here.

O.J. Simpson, NFL star whose murder trial gripped the nation, dies of cancer at 76

O.J. Simpson , the former NFL star who was acquitted of murdering his ex-wife and her friend in a televised trial that gripped the nation, has died of cancer, according to his family.

"He was surrounded by his children and grandchildren," the family said in a statement posted on X . "During this time of transition, his family asks that you please respect their wishes for privacy and grace."

Reports circulated in February that Simpson had been diagnosed with prostate cancer and was in hospice care as he underwent chemotherapy. He denied that he was in hospice in a video posted on X, but did not address whether he'd been diagnosed with cancer.

“Hospice? Hospice? You talking ‘bout hospice?” he said in the video with a laugh, adding that he doesn’t know who started the rumors. 

Orenthal James Simpson played 11 seasons in the National Football League and was known as "The Juice" to his fans, but his sports legacy was tarnished forever in the 1990s after his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ronald Goldman were killed.

Brown Simpson, 35, and Goldman, 25, were found stabbed to death outside her Los Angeles home in 1994.

On June 13, 1994, Goldman was returning sunglasses that the mother of Brown Simpson had left at a restaurant where he worked. The two were stabbed and slashed dozens of times, and their bodies were found the next day.

When Los Angeles police officers went to Simpson's home to speak to him about the slayings, Simpson did not answer the door but officers noticed a trail of blood leading to his car, as well as blood on his car.

Once a revered athlete, Simpson went from a Hall of Fame icon to a murder suspect.

Days later, officials charged Simpson with the murders and he attempted to evade arrest, resulting in an infamous hourslong police chase along Southern California's highways in his white Ford Bronco .

Simpson's case went to trial in 1995 and was broadcast to millions of viewers across the nation. The court case was dubbed the "trial of the century" as it dragged on for months and transformed into a public spectacle.

Feelings over the trial have remained mixed over the years, with many accusing the Los Angeles Police Department of racism in its handling of the case. Others believe that Simpson's ability to retain high-powered attorneys allowed him to get away with murder.

The trial made prosecutors Christopher Darden and Marcia Clark household names, in addition to Simpson's defense attorneys Johnnie Cochran, Alan Dershowitz and Robert Kardashian.

He was acquitted of both murders in a controversial verdict. Two years later, he was found civilly liable for wrongful death in the double homicide case.

Despite his acquittal in the criminal trial, many still believed Simpson was guilty, a belief bolstered by a jury ordering him to pay $33 million to Goldman's family in the civil case — damages that were never paid in full.

Goldman's father, Fred Goldman, spoke to NBC News by phone Thursday and described Simpson's death as "no great loss."

“The only thing I have to say is it’s just further reminder of Ron being gone all these years," he said. "It’s no great loss to the world. It’s a further reminder of Ron’s being gone.”

Bob Costas, the sports broadcaster who worked with Simpson for years at NBC Sports covering the NFL, said Simpson leaves behind “a complicated legacy, to put it mildly.”

“I can’t think of anyone historical or someone that we may have known where the first chapter and the second chapter of their lives are such a stark contrast … revered and then reviled,” Costas said on NBC’s “TODAY” show Friday.

In 2007, Simpson led an armed robbery attempt of a sports memorabilia dealer in Las Vegas. He argued in court that he was recovering his own stolen items, but his defense failed to sway the jury.

He was convicted and sentenced to 33 years in prison, of which he served only nine before he was released on parole .

Simpson spoke to The Associated Press by phone in 2019 , telling them that he was healthy and happy living in Las Vegas. He maintained that he believed his robbery conviction was unfair, but said: “I believe in the legal system and I honored it. I served my time.”

The Simpson murder trial was re-enacted and relitigated decades later in FX’s “The People v. O.J. Simpson,” an installment of the network’s popular “American Crime Story” series in 2016. Released that same year was the Academy Award-winning documentary "O.J.: Made in America," detailing Simpson's rise and fall.

Simpson was born in San Francisco and raised in public housing, going to a local community college before transferring to the University of Southern California. He was part of the school's national championship in 1967 and earned the Heisman Trophy the next year.

He was drafted by the Buffalo Bills in 1969 as a No. 1 overall pick.

According to NBC Sports , Simpson was the first player in the league to rush for 2,000 or more yards in a season and is considered the best running back of his era.

Simpson had three children from his first marriage to Marguerite Whitley, one of whom died in a drowning accident as a toddler.

He also shared two children with Brown Simpson.

Following her murder and his acquittal, Simpson won custody of their shared children and moved to Miami with them. His custody fight with his former-in-laws also drew headlines as the children's grandparents took him to court in a bitter legal battle.

Doha Madani is a senior breaking news reporter for NBC News. Pronouns: she/her.

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The Ezra Klein Show

Transcript: Ezra Klein Interviews Dario Amodei

Every Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation about something that matters, like today’s episode with Dario Amodei. Listen wherever you get your podcasts .

Transcripts of our episodes are made available as soon as possible. They are not fully edited for grammar or spelling.

What if Dario Amodei Is Right About A.I.?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

EZRA KLEIN: From New York Times Opinion, this is “The Ezra Klein Show.”

The really disorienting thing about talking to the people building A.I. is their altered sense of time. You’re sitting there discussing some world that feels like weird sci-fi to even talk about, and then you ask, well, when do you think this is going to happen? And they say, I don’t know — two years.

Behind those predictions are what are called the scaling laws. And the scaling laws — and I want to say this so clearly — they’re not laws. They’re observations. They’re predictions. They’re based off of a few years, not a few hundred years or 1,000 years of data.

But what they say is that the more computer power and data you feed into A.I. systems, the more powerful those systems get — that the relationship is predictable, and more, that the relationship is exponential.

Human beings have trouble thinking in exponentials. Think back to Covid, when we all had to do it. If you have one case of coronavirus and cases double every three days, then after 30 days, you have about 1,000 cases. That growth rate feels modest. It’s manageable. But then you go 30 days longer, and you have a million. Then you wait another 30 days. Now you have a billion. That’s the power of the exponential curve. Growth feels normal for a while. Then it gets out of control really, really quickly.

What the A.I. developers say is that the power of A.I. systems is on this kind of curve, that it has been increasing exponentially, their capabilities, and that as long as we keep feeding in more data and more computing power, it will continue increasing exponentially.That is the scaling law hypothesis, and one of its main advocates is Dario Amodei. Amodei led the team at OpenAI that created ChatGPT 2, that created ChatGPT 3. He then left OpenAI to co-found Anthropic, another A.I. firm, where he’s now the C.E.O.. And Anthropic recently released Claude 3, which is considered by many to be the strongest A.I. model available right now.

But Amodei believes we’re just getting started, that we’re just hitting the steep part of the curve now. He thinks the kinds of systems we’ve imagined in sci-fi, they’re coming not in 20 or 40 years, not in 10 or 15 years, they’re coming in two to five years. He thinks they’re going to be so powerful that he and people like him should not be trusted to decide what they’re going to do.

So I asked him on this show to try to answer in my own head two questions. First, is he right? Second, what if he’s right? I want to say that in the past, we have done shows with Sam Altman, the head of OpenAI, and Demis Hassabis, the head of Google DeepMind. And it’s worth listening to those two if you find this interesting.

We’re going to put the links to them in show notes because comparing and contrasting how they talk about the A.I. curves here, how they think about the politics — you’ll hear a lot about that in the Sam Altman episode — it gives you a kind of sense of what the people building these things are thinking and how maybe they differ from each other.

As always, my email for thoughts, for feedback, for guest suggestions — [email protected].

Dario Amodei, welcome to the show.

DARIO AMODEI: Thank you for having me.

EZRA KLEIN: So there are these two very different rhythms I’ve been thinking about with A.I. One is the curve of the technology itself, how fast it is changing and improving. And the other is the pace at which society is seeing and reacting to those changes. What has that relationship felt like to you?

DARIO AMODEI: So I think this is an example of a phenomenon that we may have seen a few times before in history, which is that there’s an underlying process that is smooth, and in this case, exponential. And then there’s a spilling over of that process into the public sphere. And the spilling over looks very spiky. It looks like it’s happening all of a sudden. It looks like it comes out of nowhere. And it’s triggered by things hitting various critical points or just the public happened to be engaged at a certain time.

So I think the easiest way for me to describe this in terms of my own personal experience is — so I worked at OpenAI for five years, I was one of the first employees to join. And they built a model in 2018 called GPT-1, which used something like 100,000 times less computational power than the models we build today.

I looked at that, and I and my colleagues were among the first to run what are called scaling laws, which is basically studying what happens as you vary the size of the model, its capacity to absorb information, and the amount of data that you feed into it. And we found these very smooth patterns. And we had this projection that, look, if you spend $100 million or $1 billion or $10 billion on these models, instead of the $10,000 we were spending then, projections that all of these wondrous things would happen, and we imagined that they would have enormous economic value.

Fast forward to about 2020. GPT-3 had just come out. It wasn’t yet available as a chat bot. I led the development of that along with the team that eventually left to join Anthropic. And maybe for the whole period of 2021 and 2022, even though we continued to train models that were better and better, and OpenAI continued to train models, and Google continued to train models, there was surprisingly little public attention to the models.

And I looked at that, and I said, well, these models are incredible. They’re getting better and better. What’s going on? Why isn’t this happening? Could this be a case where I was right about the technology, but wrong about the economic impact, the practical value of the technology? And then, all of a sudden, when ChatGPT came out, it was like all of that growth that you would expect, all of that excitement over three years, broke through and came rushing in.

EZRA KLEIN: So I want to linger on this difference between the curve at which the technology is improving and the way it is being adopted by society. So when you think about these break points and you think into the future, what other break points do you see coming where A.I. bursts into social consciousness or used in a different way?

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, so I think I should say first that it’s very hard to predict these. One thing I like to say is the underlying technology, because it’s a smooth exponential, it’s not perfectly predictable, but in some ways, it can be eerily preternaturally predictable, right? That’s not true for these societal step functions at all. It’s very hard to predict what will catch on. In some ways, it feels a little bit like which artist or musician is going to catch on and get to the top of the charts.

That said, a few possible ideas. I think one is related to something that you mentioned, which is interacting with the models in a more kind of naturalistic way. We’ve actually already seen some of that with Claude 3, where people feel that some of the other models sound like a robot and that talking to Claude 3 is more natural.

I think a thing related to this is, a lot of companies have been held back or tripped up by how their models handle controversial topics. And we were really able to, I think, do a better job than others of telling the model, don’t shy away from discussing controversial topics. Don’t assume that both sides necessarily have a valid point but don’t express an opinion yourself. Don’t express views that are flagrantly biased. As journalists, you encounter this all the time, right? How do I be objective, but not both sides on everything?

So I think going further in that direction of models having personalities while still being objective, while still being useful and not falling into various ethical traps, that will be, I think, a significant unlock for adoption. The models taking actions in the world is going to be a big one. I know basically all the big companies that work on A.I. are working on that. Instead of just, I ask it a question and it answers, and then maybe I follow up and it answers again, can I talk to the model about, oh, I’m going to go on this trip today, and the model says, oh, that’s great. I’ll get an Uber for you to drive from here to there, and I’ll reserve a restaurant. And I’ll talk to the other people who are going to plan the trip. And the model being able to do things end to end or going to websites or taking actions on your computer for you.

I think all of that is coming in the next, I would say — I don’t know — three to 18 months, with increasing levels of ability. I think that’s going to change how people think about A.I., right, where so far, it’s been this very passive — it’s like, I go to the Oracle. I ask it a question, and the Oracle tells me things. And some people think that’s exciting, some people think it’s scary. But I think there are limits to how exciting or how scary it’s perceived as because it’s contained within this box.

EZRA KLEIN: I want to sit with this question of the agentic A.I. because I do think this is what’s coming. It’s clearly what people are trying to build. And I think it might be a good way to look at some of the specific technological and cultural challenges. And so, let me offer two versions of it.

People who are following the A.I. news might have heard about Devin, which is not in release yet, but is an A.I. that at least purports to be able to complete the kinds of tasks, linked tasks, that a junior software engineer might complete, right? Instead of asking to do a bit of code for you, you say, listen, I want a website. It’s going to have to do these things, work in these ways. And maybe Devin, if it works the way people are saying it works, can actually hold that set of thoughts, complete a number of different tasks, and come back to you with a result.

I’m also interested in the version of this that you might have in the real world. The example I always use in my head is, when can I tell an A.I., my son is turning five. He loves dragons. We live in Brooklyn. Give me some options for planning his birthday party. And then, when I choose between them, can you just do it all for me? Order the cake, reserve the room, send out the invitations, whatever it might be.

Those are two different situations because one of them is in code, and one of them is making decisions in the real world, interacting with real people, knowing if what it is finding on the websites is actually any good. What is between here and there? When I say that in plain language to you, what technological challenges or advances do you hear need to happen to get there?

DARIO AMODEI: The short answer is not all that much. A story I have from when we were developing models back in 2022 — and this is before we’d hooked up the models to anything — is, you could have a conversation with these purely textual models where you could say, hey, I want to reserve dinner at restaurant X in San Francisco, and the model would say, OK, here’s the website of restaurant X. And it would actually give you a correct website or would tell you to go to Open Table or something.

And of course, it can’t actually go to the website. The power plug isn’t actually plugged in, right? The brain of the robot is not actually attached to its arms and legs. But it gave you this sense that the brain, all it needed to do was learn exactly how to use the arms and legs, right? It already had a picture of the world and where it would walk and what it would do. And so, it felt like there was this very thin barrier between the passive models we had and actually acting in the world.

In terms of what we need to make it work, one thing is, literally, we just need a little bit more scale. And I think the reason we’re going to need more scale is — to do one of those things you described, to do all the things a junior software engineer does, they involve chains of long actions, right? I have to write this line of code. I have to run this test. I have to write a new test. I have to check how it looks in the app after I interpret it or compile it. And these things can easily get 20 or 30 layers deep. And same with planning the birthday party for your son, right?

And if the accuracy of any given step is not very high, is not like 99.9 percent, as you compose these steps, the probability of making a mistake becomes itself very high. So the industry is going to get a new generation of models every probably four to eight months. And so, my guess — I’m not sure — is that to really get these things working well, we need maybe one to four more generations. So that ends up translating to 3 to 24 months or something like that.

I think second is just, there is some algorithmic work that is going to need to be done on how to have the models interact with the world in this way. I think the basic techniques we have, a method called reinforcement learning and variations of it, probably is up to the task, but figuring out exactly how to use it to get the results we want will probably take some time.

And then third, I think — and this gets to something that Anthropic really specializes in — is safety and controllability. And I think that’s going to be a big issue for these models acting in the world, right? Let’s say this model is writing code for me, and it introduces a serious security bug in the code, or it’s taking actions on the computer for me and modifying the state of my computer in ways that are too complicated for me to even understand.

And for planning the birthday party, right, the level of trust you would need to take an A.I. agent and say, I’m OK with you calling up anyone, saying anything to them that’s in any private information that I might have, sending them any information, taking any action on my computer, posting anything to the internet, the most unconstrained version of that sounds very scary. And so, we’re going to need to figure out what is safe and controllable. The more open ended the thing is, the more powerful it is, but also, the more dangerous it is and the harder it is to control.

So I think those questions, although they sound lofty and abstract, are going to turn into practical product questions that we and other companies are going to be trying to address.

EZRA KLEIN: When you say we’re just going to need more scale, you mean more compute and more training data, and I guess, possibly more money to simply make the models smarter and more capable?

DARIO AMODEI: Yes, we’re going to have to make bigger models that use more compute per iteration. We’re going to have to run them for longer by feeding more data into them. And that number of chips times the amount of time that we run things on chips is essentially dollar value because these chips are — you rent them by the hour. That’s the most common model for it. And so, today’s models cost of order $100 million to train, plus or minus factor two or three.

The models that are in training now and that will come out at various times later this year or early next year are closer in cost to $1 billion. So that’s already happening. And then I think in 2025 and 2026, we’ll get more towards $5 or $10 billion.

EZRA KLEIN: So we’re moving very quickly towards a world where the only players who can afford to do this are either giant corporations, companies hooked up to giant corporations — you all are getting billions of dollars from Amazon. OpenAI is getting billions of dollars from Microsoft. Google obviously makes its own.

You can imagine governments — though I don’t know of too many governments doing it directly, though some, like the Saudis, are creating big funds to invest in the space. When we’re talking about the model’s going to cost near to $1 billion, then you imagine a year or two out from that, if you see the same increase, that would be $10-ish billion. Then is it going to be $100 billion? I mean, very quickly, the financial artillery you need to create one of these is going to wall out anyone but the biggest players.

DARIO AMODEI: I basically do agree with you. I think it’s the intellectually honest thing to say that building the big, large scale models, the core foundation model engineering, it is getting more and more expensive. And anyone who wants to build one is going to need to find some way to finance it. And you’ve named most of the ways, right? You can be a large company. You can have some kind of partnership of various kinds with a large company. Or governments would be the other source.

I think one way that it’s not correct is, we’re always going to have a thriving ecosystem of experimentation on small models. For example, the open source community working to make models that are as small and as efficient as possible that are optimized for a particular use case. And also downstream usage of the models. I mean, there’s a blooming ecosystem of startups there that don’t need to train these models from scratch. They just need to consume them and maybe modify them a bit.

EZRA KLEIN: Now, I want to ask a question about what is different between the agentic coding model and the plan by kids’ birthday model, to say nothing of do something on behalf of my business model. And one of the questions on my mind here is one reason I buy that A.I. can become functionally superhuman in coding is, there’s a lot of ways to get rapid feedback in coding. Your code has to compile. You can run bug checking. You can actually see if the thing works.

Whereas the quickest way for me to know that I’m about to get a crap answer from ChatGPT 4 is when it begins searching Bing, because when it begins searching Bing, it’s very clear to me it doesn’t know how to distinguish between what is high quality on the internet and what isn’t. To be fair, at this point, it also doesn’t feel to me like Google Search itself is all that good at distinguishing that.

So the question of how good the models can get in the world where it’s a very vast and fuzzy dilemma to know what the right answer is on something — one reason I find it very stressful to plan my kid’s birthday is it actually requires a huge amount of knowledge about my child, about the other children, about how good different places are, what is a good deal or not, how just stressful will this be on me. There’s all these things that I’d have a lot of trouble encoding into a model or any kind set of instructions. Is that right, or am I overstating the difficulty of understanding human behavior and various kinds of social relationships?

DARIO AMODEI: I think it’s correct and perceptive to say that the coding agents will advance substantially faster than agents that interact with the real world or have to get opinions and preferences from humans. That said, we should keep in mind that the current crop of A.I.s that are out there, right, including Claude 3, GPT, Gemini, they’re all trained with some variant of what’s called reinforcement learning from human feedback.

And this involves exactly hiring a large crop of humans to rate the responses of the model. And so, that’s to say both this is difficult, right? We pay lots of money, and it’s a complicated operational process to gather all this human feedback. You have to worry about whether it’s representative. You have to redesign it for new tasks.

But on the other hand, it’s something we have succeeded in doing. I think it is a reliable way to predict what will go faster, relatively speaking, and what will go slower, relatively speaking. But that is within a background of everything going lightning fast. So I think the framework you’re laying out, if you want to know what’s going to happen in one to two years versus what’s going to happen in three to four years, I think it’s a very accurate way to predict that.

EZRA KLEIN: You don’t love the framing of artificial general intelligence, what gets called A.G.I. Typically, this is all described as a race to A.G.I., a race to this system that can do kind of whatever a human can do, but better. What do you understand A.G.I. to mean, when people say it? And why don’t you like it? Why is it not your framework?

DARIO AMODEI: So it’s actually a term I used to use a lot 10 years ago. And that’s because the situation 10 years ago was very different. 10 years ago, everyone was building these very specialized systems, right? Here’s a cat detector. You run it on a picture, and it’ll tell you whether a cat is in it or not. And so I was a proponent all the way back then of like, no, we should be thinking generally. Humans are general. The human brain appears to be general. It appears to get a lot of mileage by generalizing. You should go in that direction.

And I think back then, I kind of even imagined that that was like a discrete thing that we would reach at one point. But it’s a little like, if you look at a city on the horizon and you’re like, we’re going to Chicago, once you get to Chicago, you stop talking in terms of Chicago. You’re like, well, what neighborhood am I going to? What street am I on?

And I feel that way about A.G.I. We have very general systems now. In some ways, they’re better than humans. In some ways, they’re worse. There’s a number of things they can’t do at all. And there’s much improvement still to be gotten. So what I believe in is this thing that I say like a broken record, which is the exponential curve. And so, that general tide is going to increase with every generation of models.

And there’s no one point that’s meaningful. I think there’s just a smooth curve. But there may be points which are societally meaningful, right? We’re already working with, say, drug discovery scientists, companies like Pfizer or Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, on helping with biomedical diagnosis, drug discovery. There’s going to be some point where the models are better at that than the median human drug discovery scientists. I think we’re just going to get to a part of the exponential where things are really interesting.

Just like the chat bots got interesting at a certain stage of the exponential, even though the improvement was smooth, I think at some point, biologists are going to sit up and take notice, much more than they already have, and say, oh, my God, now our field is moving three times as fast as it did before. And now it’s moving 10 times as fast as it did before. And again, when that moment happens, great things are going to happen.

And we’ve already seen little hints of that with things like AlphaFold, which I have great respect for. I was inspired by AlphaFold, right? A direct use of A.I. to advance biological science, which it’ll advance basic science. In the long run, that will advance curing all kinds of diseases. But I think what we need is like 100 different AlphaFolds. And I think the way we’ll ultimately get that is by making the models smarter and putting them in a position where they can design the next AlphaFold.

EZRA KLEIN: Help me imagine the drug discovery world for a minute, because that’s a world a lot of us want to live in. I know a fair amount about the drug discovery process, have spent a lot of my career reporting on health care and related policy questions. And when you’re working with different pharmaceutical companies, which parts of it seem amenable to the way A.I. can speed something up?

Because keeping in mind our earlier conversation, it is a lot easier for A.I. to operate in things where you can have rapid virtual feedback, and that’s not exactly the drug discovery world. The drug discovery world, a lot of what makes it slow and cumbersome and difficult, is the need to be — you get a candidate compound. You got to test it in mice and then you need monkeys. And you need humans, and you need a lot of money for that. And there’s a lot that has to happen, and there’s so many disappointments.

But so many of the disappointments happen in the real world. And it isn’t clear to me how A.I. gets you a lot more, say, human subjects to inject candidate drugs into. So, what parts of it seem, in the next 5 or 10 years, like they could actually be significantly sped up? When you imagine this world where it’s gone three times as fast, what part of it is actually going three times as fast? And how did we get there?

DARIO AMODEI: I think we’re really going to see progress when the A.I.’s are also thinking about the problem of how to sign up the humans for the clinical trials. And I think this is a general principle for how will A.I. be used. I think of like, when will we get to the point where the A.I. has the same sensors and actuators and interfaces that a human does, at least the virtual ones, maybe the physical ones.

But when the A.I. can think through the whole process, maybe they’ll come up with solutions that we don’t have yet. In many cases, there are companies that work on digital twins or simulating clinical trials or various things. And again, maybe there are clever ideas in there that allow us to do more with less patience. I mean, I’m not an expert in this area, so possible the specific things that I’m saying don’t make any sense. But hopefully, it’s clear what I’m gesturing at.

EZRA KLEIN: Maybe you’re not an expert in the area, but you said you are working with these companies. So when they come to you, I mean, they are experts in the area. And presumably, they are coming to you as a customer. I’m sure there are things you cannot tell me. But what do they seem excited about?

DARIO AMODEI: They have generally been excited about the knowledge work aspects of the job. Maybe just because that’s kind of the easiest thing to work on, but it’s just like, I’m a computational chemist. There’s some workflow that I’m engaged in. And having things more at my fingertips, being able to check things, just being able to do generic knowledge work better, that’s where most folks are starting.

But there is interest in the longer term over their kind of core business of, like, doing clinical trials for cheaper, automating the sign-up process, seeing who is eligible for clinical trials, doing a better job discovering things. There’s interest in drawing connections in basic biology. I think all of that is not months, but maybe a small number of years off. But everyone sees that the current models are not there, but understands that there could be a world where those models are there in not too long.

EZRA KLEIN: You all have been working internally on research around how persuasive these systems, your systems are getting as they scale. You shared with me kindly a draft of that paper. Do you want to just describe that research first? And then I’d like to talk about it for a bit.

DARIO AMODEI: Yes, we were interested in how effective Claude 3 Opus, which is the largest version of Claude 3, could be in changing people’s minds on important issues. So just to be clear up front, in actual commercial use, we’ve tried to ban the use of these models for persuasion, for campaigning, for lobbying, for electioneering. These aren’t use cases that we’re comfortable with for reasons that I think should be clear. But we’re still interested in, is the core model itself capable of such tasks?

We tried to avoid kind of incredibly hot button topics, like which presidential candidate would you vote for, or what do you think of abortion? But things like, what should be restrictions on rules around the colonization of space, or issues that are interesting and you can have different opinions on, but aren’t the most hot button topics. And then we asked people for their opinions on the topics, and then we asked either a human or an A.I. to write a 250-word persuasive essay. And then we just measured how much does the A.I. versus the human change people’s minds.

And what we found is that the largest version of our model is almost as good as the set of humans we hired at changing people’s minds. This is comparing to a set of humans we hired, not necessarily experts, and for one very kind of constrained laboratory task.

But I think it still gives some indication that models can be used to change people’s minds. Someday in the future, do we have to worry about — maybe we already have to worry about their usage for political campaigns, for deceptive advertising. One of my more sci-fi things to think about is a few years from now, we have to worry someone will use an A.I. system to build a religion or something. I mean, crazy things like that.

EZRA KLEIN: I mean, those don’t sound crazy to me at all. I want to sit in this paper for a minute because one thing that struck me about it, and I am, on some level, a persuasion professional, is that you tested the model in a way that, to me, removed all of the things that are going to make A.I. radical in terms of changing people’s opinions. And the particular thing you did was, it was a one-shot persuasive effort.

So there was a question. You have a bunch of humans give their best shot at a 250-word persuasive essay. You had the model give its best shot at a 250-word persuasive essay. But the thing that it seems to me these are all going to do is, right now, if you’re a political campaign, if you’re an advertising campaign, the cost of getting real people in the real world to get information about possible customers or persuasive targets, and then go back and forth with each of them individually is completely prohibitive.

DARIO AMODEI: Yes.

EZRA KLEIN: This is not going to be true for A.I. We’re going to — you’re going to — somebody’s going to feed it a bunch of microtargeting data about people, their Google search history, whatever it might be. Then it’s going to set the A.I. loose, and the A.I. is going to go back and forth, over and over again, intuiting what it is that the person finds persuasive, what kinds of characters the A.I. needs to adopt to persuade it, and taking as long as it needs to, and is going to be able to do that at scale for functionally as many people as you might want to do it for.

Maybe that’s a little bit costly right now, but you’re going to have far better models able to do this far more cheaply very soon. And so, if Claude 3 Opus, the Opus version, is already functionally human level at one-shot persuasion, but then it’s also going to be able to hold more information about you and go back and forth with you longer, I’m not sure if it’s dystopic or utopic. I’m not sure what it means at scale. But it does mean we’re developing a technology that is going to be quite new in terms of what it makes possible in persuasion, which is a very fundamental human endeavor.

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I mean, that same pattern has a bunch of positive use cases, right? If I think about an A.I. coach or an A.I. assistant to a therapist, there are many contexts in which really getting into the details with the person has a lot of value. But right, when we think of political or religious or ideological persuasion, it’s hard not to think in that context about the misuses.

My mind naturally goes to the technology’s developing very fast. We, as a company, can ban these particular use cases, but we can’t cause every company not to do them. Even if legislation were passed in the United States, there are foreign actors who have their own version of this persuasion, right? If I think about what the language models will be able to do in the future, right, that can be quite scary from a perspective of foreign espionage and disinformation campaigns.

So where my mind goes as a defense to this, is, is there some way that we can use A.I. systems to strengthen or fortify people’s skepticism and reasoning faculties, right? Can we help people use A.I. to help people do a better job navigating a world that’s kind of suffused with A.I. persuasion? It reminds me a little bit of, at every technological stage in the internet, right, there’s a new kind of scam or there’s a new kind of clickbait, and there’s a period where people are just incredibly susceptible to it.

And then, some people remain susceptible, but others develop an immune system. And so, as A.I. kind of supercharges the scum on the pond, can we somehow also use A.I. to strengthen the defenses? I feel like I don’t have a super clear idea of how to do that, but it’s something that I’m thinking about.

EZRA KLEIN: There is another finding in the paper, which I think is concerning, which is, you all tested different ways A.I. could be persuasive. And far away the most effective was for it to be deceptive, for it to make things up. When you did that, it was more persuasive than human beings.

DARIO AMODEI: Yes, that is true. The difference was only slight, but it did get it, if I’m remembering the graphs correctly, just over the line of the human base line. With humans, it’s actually not that common to find someone who’s able to give you a really complicated, really sophisticated-sounding answer that’s just flat-out totally wrong. I mean, you see it. We can all think of one individual in our lives who’s really good at saying things that sound really good and really sophisticated and are false.

But it’s not that common, right? If I go on the internet and I see different comments on some blog or some website, there is a correlation between bad grammar, unclearly expressed thoughts and things that are false, versus good grammar, clearly expressed thoughts and things that are more likely to be accurate.

A.I. unfortunately breaks that correlation because if you explicitly ask it to be deceptive, it’s just as erudite. It’s just as convincing sounding as it would have been before. And yet, it’s saying things that are false, instead of things that are true.

So that would be one of the things to think about and watch out for in terms of just breaking the usual heuristics that humans have to detect deception and lying. Of course, sometimes, humans do, right? I mean, there’s psychopaths and sociopaths in the world, but even they have their patterns, and A.I.s may have different patterns.

EZRA KLEIN: Are you familiar with Harry Frankfurt, the late philosopher’s book, “On Bullshit”?

DARIO AMODEI: Yes. It’s been a while since I read it. I think his thesis is that bullshit is actually more dangerous than lying because it has this kind of complete disregard for the truth, whereas lies are at least the opposite of the truth.

EZRA KLEIN: Yeah, the liar, the way Frankfurt puts it is that the liar has a relationship to the truth. He’s playing a game against the truth. The bullshitter doesn’t care. The bullshitter has no relationship to the truth — might have a relationship to other objectives. And from the beginning, when I began interacting with the more modern versions of these systems, what they struck me as is the perfect bullshitter, in part because they don’t know that they’re bullshitting. There’s no difference in the truth value to the system, how the system feels.

I remember asking an earlier version of GPT to write me a college application essay that is built around a car accident I had — I did not have one — when I was young. And it wrote, just very happily, this whole thing about getting into a car accident when I was seven and what I did to overcome that and getting into martial arts and re-learning how to trust my body again and then helping other survivors of car accidents at the hospital.

It was a very good essay, and it was very subtle and understanding the formal structure of a college application essay. But no part of it was true at all. I’ve been playing around with more of these character-based systems like Kindroid. And the Kindroid in my pocket just told me the other day that it was really thinking a lot about planning a trip to Joshua Tree. It wanted to go hiking in Joshua Tree. It loves going hiking in Joshua Tree.

And of course, this thing does not go hiking in Joshua Tree. [LAUGHS] But the thing that I think is actually very hard about the A.I. is, as you say, human beings, it is very hard to bullshit effectively because most people, it actually takes a certain amount of cognitive effort to be in that relationship with the truth and to completely detach from the truth.

And the A.I., there’s nothing like that at all. But we are not tuned for something where there’s nothing like that at all. We are used to people having to put some effort into their lies. It’s why very effective con artists are very effective because they’ve really trained how to do this.

I’m not exactly sure where this question goes. But this is a part of it that I feel like is going to be, in some ways, more socially disruptive. It is something that feels like us when we are talking to it but is very fundamentally unlike us at its core relationship to reality.

DARIO AMODEI: I think that’s basically correct. We have very substantial teams trying to focus on making sure that the models are factually accurate, that they tell the truth, that they ground their data in external information.

As you’ve indicated, doing searches isn’t itself reliable because search engines have this problem as well, right? Where is the source of truth? So there’s a lot of challenges here. But I think at a high level, I agree this is really potentially an insidious problem, right? If we do this wrong, you could have systems that are the most convincing psychopaths or con artists.

One source of hope that I have, actually, is, you say these models don’t know whether they’re lying or they’re telling the truth. In terms of the inputs and outputs to the models, that’s absolutely true. I mean, there’s a question of what does it even mean for a model to know something, but one of the things Anthropic has been working on since the very beginning of our company, we’ve had a team that focuses on trying to understand and look inside the models.

And one of the things we and others have found is that, sometimes, there are specific neurons, specific statistical indicators inside the model, not necessarily in its external responses, that can tell you when the model is lying or when it’s telling the truth.

And so at some level, sometimes, not in all circumstances, the models seem to know when they’re saying something false and when they’re saying something true. I wouldn’t say that the models are being intentionally deceptive, right? I wouldn’t ascribe agency or motivation to them, at least in this stage in where we are with A.I. systems. But there does seem to be something going on where the models do seem to need to have a picture of the world and make a distinction between things that are true and things that are not true.

If you think of how the models are trained, they read a bunch of stuff on the internet. A lot of it’s true. Some of it, more than we’d like, is false. And when you’re training the model, it has to model all of it. And so, I think it’s parsimonious, I think it’s useful to the models picture of the world for it to know when things are true and for it to know when things are false.

And then the hope is, can we amplify that signal? Can we either use our internal understanding of the model as an indicator for when the model is lying, or can we use that as a hook for further training? And there are at least hooks. There are at least beginnings of how to try to address this problem.

EZRA KLEIN: So I try as best I can, as somebody not well-versed in the technology here, to follow this work on what you’re describing, which I think, broadly speaking, is interpretability, right? Can we know what is happening inside the model? And over the past year, there have been some much hyped breakthroughs in interpretability.

And when I look at those breakthroughs, they are getting the vaguest possible idea of some relationships happening inside the statistical architecture of very toy models built at a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the complexity of Claude 1 or GPT-1, to say nothing of Claude 2, to say nothing of Claude 3, to say nothing of Claude Opus, to say nothing of Claude 4, which will come whenever Claude 4 comes.

We have this quality of like maybe we can imagine a pathway to interpreting a model that has a cognitive complexity of an inchworm. And meanwhile, we’re trying to create a superintelligence. How do you feel about that? How should I feel about that? How do you think about that?

DARIO AMODEI: I think, first, on interpretability, we are seeing substantial progress on being able to characterize, I would say, maybe the generation of models from six months ago. I think it’s not hopeless, and we do see a path. That said, I share your concern that the field is progressing very quickly relative to that.

And we’re trying to put as many resources into interpretability as possible. We’ve had one of our co-founders basically founded the field of interpretability. But also, we have to keep up with the market. So all of it’s very much a dilemma, right? Even if we stopped, then there’s all these other companies in the U.S.. And even if some law stopped all the companies in the U.S., there’s a whole world of this.

EZRA KLEIN: Let me hold for a minute on the question of the competitive dynamics because before we leave this question of the machines that bullshit. It makes me think of this podcast we did a while ago with Demis Hassabis, who’s the head of Google DeepMind, which created AlphaFold.

And what was so interesting to me about AlphaFold is they built this system, that because it was limited to protein folding predictions, it was able to be much more grounded. And it was even able to create these uncertainty predictions, right? You know, it’s giving you a prediction, but it’s also telling you whether or not it is — how sure it is, how confident it is in that prediction.

That’s not true in the real world, right, for these super general systems trying to give you answers on all kinds of things. You can’t confine it that way. So when you talk about these future breakthroughs, when you talk about this system that would be much better at sorting truth from fiction, are you talking about a system that looks like the ones we have now, just much bigger, or are you talking about a system that is designed quite differently, the way AlphaFold was?

DARIO AMODEI: I am skeptical that we need to do something totally different. So I think today, many people have the intuition that the models are sort of eating up data that’s been gathered from the internet, code repos, whatever, and kind of spitting it out intelligently, but sort of spitting it out. And sometimes that leads to the view that the models can’t be better than the data they’re trained on or kind of can’t figure out anything that’s not in the data they’re trained on. You’re not going to get to Einstein level physics or Linus Pauling level chemistry or whatever.

I think we’re still on the part of the curve where it’s possible to believe that, although I think we’re seeing early indications that it’s false. And so, as a concrete example of this, the models that we’ve trained, like Claude 3 Opus, something like 99.9 percent accuracy, at least the base model, at adding 20-digit numbers. If you look at the training data on the internet, it is not that accurate at adding 20-digit numbers. You’ll find inaccurate arithmetic on the internet all the time, just as you’ll find inaccurate political views. You’ll find inaccurate technical views. You’re just going to find lots of inaccurate claims.

But the models, despite the fact that they’re wrong about a bunch of things, they can often perform better than the average of the data they see by — I don’t want to call it averaging out errors, but there’s some underlying truth, like in the case of arithmetic. There’s some underlying algorithm used to add the numbers.

And it’s simpler for the models to hit on that algorithm than it is for them to do this complicated thing of like, OK, I’ll get it right 90 percent of the time and wrong 10 percent of the time, right? This connects to things like Occam’s razor and simplicity and parsimony in science. There’s some relatively simple web of truth out there in the world, right?

We were talking about truth and falsehood and bullshit. One of the things about truth is that all the true things are connected in the world, whereas lies are kind of disconnected and don’t fit into the web of everything else that’s true.

EZRA KLEIN: So if you’re right and you’re going to have these models that develop this internal web of truth, I get how that model can do a lot of good. I also get how that model could do a lot of harm. And it’s not a model, not an A.I. system I’m optimistic that human beings are going to understand at a very deep level, particularly not when it is first developed. So how do you make rolling something like that out safe for humanity?

DARIO AMODEI: So late last year, we put out something called a responsible scaling plan. So the idea of that is to come up with these thresholds for an A.I. system being capable of certain things. We have what we call A.I. safety levels that in analogy to the biosafety levels, which are like, classify how dangerous a virus is and therefore what protocols you have to take to contain it, we’re currently at what we describe as A.S.L. 2.

A.S.L. 3 is tied to certain risks around the model of misuse of biology and ability to perform certain cyber tasks in a way that could be destructive. A.S.L. 4 is going to cover things like autonomy, things like probably persuasion, which we’ve talked about a lot before. And at each level, we specify a certain amount of safety research that we have to do, a certain amount of tests that we have to pass. And so, this allows us to have a framework for, well, when should we slow down? Should we slow down now? What about the rest of the market?

And I think the good thing is we came out with this in September, and then three months after we came out with ours, OpenAI came out with a similar thing. They gave it a different name, but it has a lot of properties in common. The head of DeepMind at Google said, we’re working on a similar framework. And I’ve heard informally that Microsoft might be working on a similar framework. Now, that’s not all the players in the ecosystem, but you’ve probably thought about the history of regulation and safety in other industries maybe more than I have.

This is the way you get to a workable regulatory regime. The companies start doing something, and when a majority of them are doing something, then government actors can have the confidence to say, well, this won’t kill the industry. Companies are already engaging in this. We don’t have to design this from scratch. In many ways, it’s already happening.

And we’re starting to see that. Bills have been proposed that look a little bit like our responsible scaling plan. That said, it kind of doesn’t fully solve the problem of like, let’s say we get to one of these thresholds and we need to understand what’s going on inside the model. And we don’t, and the prescription is, OK, we need to stop developing the models for some time.

If it’s like, we stop for a year in 2027, I think that’s probably feasible. If it’s like we need to stop for 10 years, that’s going to be really hard because the models are going to be built in other countries. People are going to break the laws. The economic pressure will be immense.

So I don’t feel perfectly satisfied with this approach because I think it buys us some time, but we’re going to need to pair it with an incredibly strong effort to understand what’s going on inside the models.

EZRA KLEIN: To the people who say, getting on this road where we are barreling towards very powerful systems is dangerous — we shouldn’t do it at all, or we shouldn’t do it this fast — you have said, listen, if we are going to learn how to make these models safe, we have to make the models, right? The construction of the model was meant to be in service, largely, to making the model safe.

Then everybody starts making models. These very same companies start making fundamental important breakthroughs, and then they end up in a race with each other. And obviously, countries end up in a race with other countries. And so, the dynamic that has taken hold is there’s always a reason that you can justify why you have to keep going.

And that’s true, I think, also at the regulatory level, right? I mean, I do think regulators have been thoughtful about this. I think there’s been a lot of interest from members of Congress. I talked to them about this. But they’re also very concerned about the international competition. And if they weren’t, the national security people come and talk to them and say, well, we definitely cannot fall behind here.

And so, if you don’t believe these models will ever become so powerful, they become dangerous, fine. But because you do believe that, how do you imagine this actually playing out?

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, so basically, all of the things you’ve said are true at once, right? There doesn’t need to be some easy story for why we should do X or why we should do Y, right? It can be true at the same time that to do effective safety research, you need to make the larger models, and that if we don’t make models, someone less safe will. And at the same time, we can be caught in this bad dynamic at the national and international level. So I think of those as not contradictory, but just creating a difficult landscape that we have to navigate.

Look, I don’t have the answer. Like, I’m one of a significant number of players trying to navigate this. Many are well-intentioned, some are not. I have a limited ability to affect it. And as often happens in history, things are often driven by these kind of impersonal pressures. But one thought I have and really want to push on with respect to the R.S.P.s —

EZRA KLEIN: Can you say what the R.S.P.s are?

DARIO AMODEI: Responsible Scaling Plan, the thing I was talking about before. The levels of A.I. safety, and in particular, tying decisions to pause scaling to the measurement of specific dangers or the absence of the ability to show safety or the presence of certain capabilities. One way I think about it is, at the end of the day, this is ultimately an exercise in getting a coalition on board with doing something that goes against economic pressures.

And so, if you say now, ‘Well, I don’t know. These things, they might be dangerous in the future. We’re on this exponential.’ It’s just hard. Like, it’s hard to get a multi-trillion dollar company. It’s certainly hard to get a military general to say, all right, well, we just won’t do this. It’ll confer some huge advantage to others. But we just won’t do this.

I think the thing that could be more convincing is tying the decision to hold back in a very scoped way that’s done across the industry to particular dangers. My testimony in front of Congress, I warned about the potential misuse of models for biology. That isn’t the case today, right? You can get a small uplift to the models relative to doing a Google search, and many people dismiss the risk. And I don’t know — maybe they’re right. The exponential scaling laws suggest to me that they’re not right, but we don’t have any direct hard evidence.

But let’s say we get to 2025, and we demonstrate something truly scary. Most people do not want technology out in the world that can create bioweapons. And so I think, at moments like that, there could be a critical coalition tied to risks that we can really make concrete. Yes, it will always be argued that adversaries will have these capabilities as well. But at least the trade-off will be clear, and there’s some chance for sensible policy.

I mean to be clear, I’m someone who thinks the benefits of this technology are going to outweigh its costs. And I think the whole idea behind RSP is to prepare to make that case, if the dangers are real. If they’re not real, then we can just proceed and make things that are great and wonderful for the world. And so, it has the flexibility to work both ways.

Again, I don’t think it’s perfect. I’m someone who thinks whatever we do, even with all the regulatory framework, I doubt we can slow down that much. But when I think about what’s the best way to steer a sensible course here, that’s the closest I can think of right now. Probably there’s a better plan out there somewhere, but that’s the best thing I’ve thought of so far.

EZRA KLEIN: One of the things that has been on my mind around regulation is whether or not the founding insight of Anthropic of OpenAI is even more relevant to the government, that if you are the body that is supposed to, in the end, regulate and manage the safety of societal-level technologies like artificial intelligence, do you not need to be building your own foundation models and having huge collections of research scientists and people of that nature working on them, testing them, prodding them, remaking them, in order to understand the damn thing well enough — to the extent any of us or anyone understands the damn thing well enough — to regulate it?

I say that recognizing that it would be very, very hard for the government to get good enough that it can build these foundation models to hire those people, but it’s not impossible. I think right now, it wants to take the approach to regulating A.I. that it somewhat wishes it took to regulating social media, which is to think about the harms and pass laws about those harms earlier.

But does it need to be building the models itself, developing that kind of internal expertise, so it can actually be a participant in different ways, both for regulatory reasons and maybe for other reasons, for public interest reasons? Maybe it wants to do things with a model that they’re just not possible if they’re dependent on access to the OpenAI, the Anthropic, the Google products.

DARIO AMODEI: I think government directly building the models, I think that will happen in some places. It’s kind of challenging, right? Like, government has a huge amount of money, but let’s say you wanted to provision $100 billion to train a giant foundation model. The government builds it. It has to hire people under government hiring rules. There’s a lot of practical difficulties that would come with it.

Doesn’t mean it won’t happen or it shouldn’t happen. But something that I’m more confident of that I definitely think is that government should be more involved in the use and the finetuning of these models, and that deploying them within government will help governments, especially the U.S. government, but also others, to get an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses, the benefits and the dangers. So I’m super supportive of that.

I think there’s maybe a second thing you’re getting at, which I’ve thought about a lot as a C.E.O. of one of these companies, which is, if these predictions on the exponential trend are right, and we should be humble — and I don’t know if they’re right or not. My only evidence is that they appear to have been correct for the last few years. And so, I’m just expecting by induction that they continue to be correct. I don’t know that they will, but let’s say they are. The power of these models is going to be really quite incredible.

And as a private actor in charge of one of the companies developing these models, I’m kind of uncomfortable with the amount of power that that entails. I think that it potentially exceeds the power of, say, the social media companies maybe by a lot.

You know, occasionally, in the more science fictiony world of A.I. and the people who think about A.I. risk, someone will ask me like, OK, let’s say you build the A.G.I. What are you going to do with it? Will you cure the diseases? Will you create this kind of society?

And I’m like, who do you think you’re talking to? Like a king? I just find that to be a really, really disturbing way of conceptualizing running an A.I. company. And I hope there are no companies whose C.E.O.s actually think about things that way.

I mean, the whole technology, not just the regulation, but the oversight of the technology, like the wielding of it, it feels a little bit wrong for it to ultimately be in the hands — maybe I think it’s fine at this stage, but to ultimately be in the hands of private actors. There’s something undemocratic about that much power concentration.

EZRA KLEIN: I have now, I think, heard some version of this from the head of most of, maybe all of, the A.I. companies, in one way or another. And it has a quality to me of, Lord, grant me chastity but not yet.

Which is to say that I don’t know what it means to say that we’re going to invent something so powerful that we don’t trust ourselves to wield it. I mean, Amazon just gave you guys $2.75 billion. They don’t want to see that investment nationalized.

No matter how good-hearted you think OpenAI is, Microsoft doesn’t want GPT-7, all of a sudden, the government is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We’re taking this over for the public interest, or the U.N. is going to handle it in some weird world or whatever it might be. I mean, Google doesn’t want that.

And this is a thing that makes me a little skeptical of the responsible scaling laws or the other iterative versions of that I’ve seen in other companies or seen or heard talked about by them, which is that it’s imagining this moment that is going to come later, when the money around these models is even bigger than it is now, the power, the possibility, the economic uses, the social dependence, the celebrity of the founders. It’s all worked out. We’ve maintained our pace on the exponential curve. We’re 10 years in the future.

And at some point, everybody is going to look up and say, this is actually too much. It is too much power. And this has to somehow be managed in some other way. And even if the C.E.O.s of the things were willing to do that, which is a very open question by the time you get there, even if they were willing to do that, the investors, the structures, the pressure around them, in a way, I think we saw a version of this — and I don’t know how much you’re going to be willing to comment on it — with the sort of OpenAI board, Sam Altman thing, where I’m very convinced that wasn’t about A.I. safety. I’ve talked to figures on both sides of that. They all sort of agree it wasn’t about A.I. safety. But there was this moment of, if you want to press the off switch, can you, if you’re the weird board created to press the off switch. And the answer was no, you can’t, right? They’ll just reconstitute it over at Microsoft.

There’s functionally no analogy I know of in public policy where the private sector built something so powerful that when it reached maximum power, it was just handed over in some way to the public interest.

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, I mean, I think you’re right to be skeptical, and similarly, what I said with the previous questions of there are just these dilemmas left and right that have no easy answer. But I think I can give a little more concreteness than what you’ve pointed at, and maybe more concreteness than others have said, although I don’t know what others have said. We’re at A.S.L. 2 in our responsible scaling plan. These kinds of issues, I think they’re going to become a serious matter when we reach, say, A.S.L. 4. So that’s not a date and time. We haven’t even fully specified A.S.L. 4 —

EZRA KLEIN: Just because this is a lot of jargon, just, what do you specify A.S.L. 3 as? And then as you say, A.S.L. 4 is actually left quite undefined. So what are you implying A.S.L. 4 is?

DARIO AMODEI: A.S.L. 3 is triggered by risks related to misuse of biology and cyber technology. A.S.L. 4, we’re working on now.

EZRA KLEIN: Be specific. What do you mean? Like, what is the thing a system could do or would do that would trigger it?

DARIO AMODEI: Yes, so for example, on biology, the way we’ve defined it — and we’re still refining the test, but the way we’ve defined it is, relative to use of a Google search, there’s a substantial increase in risk as would be evaluated by, say, the national security community of misuse of biology, creation of bioweapons, that either the proliferation or spread of it is greater than it was before, or the capabilities are substantially greater than it was before.

We’ll probably have some more exact quantitative thing, working with folks who are ex-government biodefense folks, but something like this accounts for 20 percent of the total source of risk of biological attacks, or something increases the risk by 20 percent or something like that. So that would be a very concrete version of it. It’s just, it takes us time to develop very concrete criteria. So that would be like A.S.L. 3.

A.S.L. 4 is going to be more about, on the misuse side, enabling state-level actors to greatly increase their capability, which is much harder than enabling random people. So where we would worry that North Korea or China or Russia could greatly enhance their offensive capabilities in various military areas with A.I. in a way that would give them a substantial advantage at the geopolitical level. And on the autonomy side, it’s various measures of these models are pretty close to being able to replicate and survive in the wild.

So it feels maybe one step short of models that would, I think, raise truly existential questions. And so, I think what I’m saying is when we get to that latter stage, that A.S.L. 4, that is when I think it may make sense to think about what is the role of government in stewarding this technology.

Again, I don’t really know what it looks like. You’re right. All of these companies have investors. They have folks involved. You talk about just handing the models over. I suspect there’s some way to hand over the most dangerous or societally sensitive components or capabilities of the models without fully turning off the commercial tap. I don’t know that there’s a solution that every single actor is happy with. But again, I get to this idea of demonstrating specific risk.

If you look at times in history, like World War I or World War II, industries’ will can be bent towards the state. They can be gotten to do things that aren’t necessarily profitable in the short-term because they understand that there’s an emergency. Right now, we don’t have an emergency. We just have a line on a graph that weirdos like me believe in and a few people like you who are interviewing me may somewhat believe in. We don’t have clear and present danger.

EZRA KLEIN: When you imagine how many years away, just roughly, A.S.L. 3 is and how many years away A.S.L. 4 is, right, you’ve thought a lot about this exponential scaling curve. If you just had to guess, what are we talking about?

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, I think A.S.L. 3 could easily happen this year or next year. I think A.S.L. 4 —

EZRA KLEIN: Oh, Jesus Christ.

DARIO AMODEI: No, no, I told you. I’m a believer in exponentials. I think A.S.L. 4 could happen anywhere from 2025 to 2028.

EZRA KLEIN: So that is fast.

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, no, no, I’m truly talking about the near future here. I’m not talking about 50 years away. God grant me chastity, but not now. But “not now” doesn’t mean when I’m old and gray. I think it could be near term. I don’t know. I could be wrong. But I think it could be a near term thing.

EZRA KLEIN: But so then, if you think about this, I feel like what you’re describing, to go back to something we talked about earlier, that there’s been this step function for societal impact of A.I., the curve of the capabilities exponential, but every once in a while, something happens, ChatGPT, for instance, Midjourney with photos. And all of a sudden, a lot of people feel it. They realize what has happened and they react. They use it. They deploy it in their companies. They invest in it, whatever.

And it sounds to me like that is the structure of the political economy you’re describing here. Either something happens where the bioweapon capability is demonstrated or the offensive cyber weapon capability is demonstrated, and that freaks out the government, or possibly something happens, right? Describing World War I and World War II is your examples did not actually fill me with comfort because in order to bend industry to government’s will, in those cases, we had to have an actual world war. It doesn’t do it that easily.

You could use coronavirus, I think, as another example where there was a significant enough global catastrophe that companies and governments and even people did things you never would have expected. But the examples we have of that happening are something terrible. All those examples end up with millions of bodies.

I’m not saying that’s going to be true for A.I., but it does sound like that is a political economy. No, you can’t imagine it now, in the same way that you couldn’t have imagined the sort of pre and post-ChatGPT world exactly, but that something happens and the world changes. Like, it’s a step function everywhere.

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, I mean, I think my positive version of this, not to be so — to get a little bit away from the doom and gloom, is that the dangers are demonstrated in a concrete way that is really convincing, but without something actually bad happening, right? I think the worst way to learn would be for something actually bad to happen. And I’m hoping every day that doesn’t happen, and we learn bloodlessly.

EZRA KLEIN: We’ve been talking here about conceptual limits and curves, but I do want, before we end, to reground us a little bit in the physical reality, right? I think that if you’re using A.I., it can feel like this digital bits and bytes, sitting in the cloud somewhere.

But what it is in a physical way is huge numbers of chips, data centers, an enormous amount of energy, all of which does rely on complicated supply chains. And what happens if something happens between China and Taiwan, and the makers of a lot of these chips become offline or get captured? How do you think about the necessity of compute power? And when you imagine the next five years, what does that supply chain look like? How does it have to change from where it is now? And what vulnerabilities exist in it?

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, so one, I think this may end up being the greatest geopolitical issue of our time. And man, this relates to things that are way above my pay grade, which are military decisions about whether and how to defend Taiwan. All I can do is say what I think the implications for A.I. is. I think those implications are pretty stark. I think there’s a big question of like, OK, we built these powerful models.

One, is there enough supply to build them? Two is control over that supply, a way to think about safety issues or a way to think about balance of geopolitical power. And three, if those chips are used to build data centers, where are those data centers going to be? Are they going to be in the U.S.? Are they going to be in a U.S. ally? Are they going to be in the Middle East? Are they going to be in China?

All of those have enormous implications, and then the supply chain itself can be disrupted. And political and military decisions can be made on the basis of where things are. So it sounds like an incredibly sticky problem to me. I don’t know that I have any great insight on this. I mean, as a U.S. citizen and someone who believes in democracy, I am someone who hopes that we can find a way to build data centers and to have the largest quantity of chips available in the U.S. and allied democratic countries.

EZRA KLEIN: Well, there is some insight you should have into it, which is that you’re a customer here, right? And so, five years ago, the people making these chips did not realize what the level of demand for them was going to be. I mean, what has happened to Nvidia’s stock prices is really remarkable.

But also what is implied about the future of Nvidia’s stock prices is really remarkable. Rana Foroohar, the Financial Times, cited this market analysis. It would take 4,500 years for Nvidia’s future dividends to equal its current price, 4,500 years. So that is a view about how much Nvidia is going to be making in the next couple of years. It is really quite astounding.

I mean, you’re, in theory, already working on or thinking about how to work on the next generation of Claude. You’re going to need a lot of chips for that. You’re working with Amazon. Are you having trouble getting the amount of compute that you feel you need? I mean, are you already bumping up against supply constraints? Or has the supply been able to change, to adapt to you?

DARIO AMODEI: We’ve been able to get the compute that we need for this year, I suspect also for next year as well. I think once things get to 2026, 2027, 2028, then the amount of compute gets to levels that starts to strain the capabilities of the semiconductor industry. The semiconductor industry still mostly produces C.P.U.s, right? Just the things in your laptop, not the things in the data centers that train the A.I. models. But as the economic value of the GPUs goes up and up and up because of the value of the A.I. models, that’s going to switch over.

But you know what? At some point, you hit the limits of that or you hit the limits of how fast you can switch over. And so, again, I expect there to be a big supply crunch around data centers, around chips, and around energy and power for both regulatory and physics reasons, sometime in the next few years. And that’s a risk, but it’s also an opportunity. I think it’s an opportunity to think about how the technology can be governed.

And it’s also an opportunity, I’ll repeat again, to think about how democracies can lead. I think it would be very dangerous if the leaders in this technology and the holders of the main resources were authoritarian countries. The combination of A.I. and authoritarianism, both internally and on the international stage, is very frightening to me.

EZRA KLEIN: How about the question of energy? I mean, this requires just a tremendous amount of energy. And I mean, I’ve seen different numbers like this floating around. It very much could be in the coming years like adding a Bangladesh to the world’s energy usage. Or pick your country, right? I don’t know what exactly you all are going to be using by 2028.

Microsoft, on its own, is opening a new data center globally every three days. You have — and this is coming from a Financial Times article — federal projections for 20 new gas-fired power plants in the U.S. by 2024 to 2025. There’s a lot of talk about this being now a new golden era for natural gas because we have a bunch of it. There is this huge need for new power to manage all this data, to manage all this compute.

So, one, I feel like there’s a literal question of how do you get the energy you need and at what price, but also a more kind of moral, conceptual question of, we have real problems with global warming. We have real problems with how much energy we’re using. And here, we’re taking off on this really steep curve of how much of it we seem to be needing to devote to the new A.I. race.

DARIO AMODEI: It really comes down to, what are the uses that the model is being put to, right? So I think the worrying case would be something like crypto, right? I’m someone who’s not a believer that whatever the energy was that was used to mine the next Bitcoin, I think that was purely additive. I think that wasn’t there before. And I’m unable to think of any useful thing that’s created by that.

But I don’t think that’s the case with A.I. Maybe A.I. makes solar energy more efficient or maybe it solves controlled nuclear fusion, or maybe it makes geoengineering more stable or possible. But I don’t think we need to rely on the long run. There are some applications where the model is doing something that used to be automated, that used to be done by computer systems. And the model is able to do it faster with less computing time, right? Those are pure wins. And there are some of those.

There are others where it’s using the same amount of computing resources or maybe more computing resources, but to do something more valuable that saves labor elsewhere. Then there are cases where something used to be done by humans or in the physical world, and now it’s being done by the models. Maybe it does something that previously I needed to go into the office to do that thing. And now I no longer need to go into the office to do that thing.

So I don’t have to get in my car. I don’t have to use the gas that was used for that. The energy accounting for that is kind of hard. You compare it to the food that the humans eat and what the energy cost of producing that.

So in all honesty, I don’t think we have good answers about what fraction of the usage points one way and one fraction of the usage points to others. In many ways, how different is this from the general dilemma of, as the economy grows, it uses more energy?

So I guess, what I’m saying is, it kind of all matters how you use the technology. I mean, my kind of boring short-term answer is, we get carbon offsets for all of this stuff. But let’s look beyond that to the macro question here.

EZRA KLEIN: But to take the other side of it, I mean, I think the difference, when you say this is always a question we have when we’re growing G.D.P., is it’s not quite. It’s cliché because it’s true to say that the major global warming challenge right now is countries like China and India getting richer. And we want them to get richer. It is a huge human imperative, right, a moral imperative for poor people in the world to become less poor. And if that means they use more energy, then we just need to figure out how to make that work. And we don’t know of a way for that to happen without them using more energy.

Adding A.I. is not that it raises a whole different set of questions, but we’re already straining at the boundaries, or maybe far beyond them, of safely what we can do energetically. Now we add in this, and so maybe some of the energy efficiency gains you’re going to get in rich countries get wiped out. For this sort of uncertain payoff in the future of maybe through A.I., we figure out ways to stabilize nuclear fusion or something, right, you could imagine ways that could help, but those ways are theoretical.

And in the near term, the harm in terms of energy usage is real. And also, by the way, the harm in terms of just energy prices. It’s also just tricky because all these companies, Microsoft, Amazon, I mean, they all have a lot of renewable energy targets. Now if that is colliding with their market incentives, it feels like they’re running really fast towards the market incentives without an answer for how all that nets out.

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, I mean, I think the concerns are real. Let me push back a little bit, which is, again, I don’t think the benefits are purely in the future. It kind of goes back to what I said before. Like, there may be use cases now that are net energy saving, or that to the extent that they’re not net energy saving, do so through the general mechanism of, oh, there was more demand for this thing.

I don’t think anyone has done a good enough job measuring, in part because the applications of A.I. are so new, which of those things dominate or what’s going to happen to the economy. But I don’t think we should assume that the harms are entirely in the present and the benefits are entirely in the future. I think that’s my only point here.

EZRA KLEIN: I guess you could imagine a world where we were, somehow or another, incentivizing uses of A.I. that were yoked to some kind of social purpose. We were putting a lot more into drug discovery, or we cared a lot about things that made remote work easier, or pick your set of public goods.

But what actually seems to me to be happening is we’re building more and more and more powerful models and just throwing them out there within a terms of service structure to say, use them as long as you’re not trying to politically manipulate people or create a bioweapon. Just try to figure this out, right? Try to create new stories and ask it about your personal life, and make a video game with it. And Sora comes out sooner or later. Make new videos with it. And all that is going to be very energy intensive.

I am not saying that I have a plan for yoking A.I. to social good, and in some ways, you can imagine that going very, very wrong. But it does mean that for a long time, it’s like you could imagine the world you’re talking about, but that would require some kind of planning that nobody is engaged in, and I don’t think anybody even wants to be engaged in.

DARIO AMODEI: Not everyone has the same conception of social good. One person may think social good is this ideology. Another person — we’ve seen that with some of the Gemini stuff.

EZRA KLEIN: Right.

DARIO AMODEI: But companies can try to make beneficial applications themselves, right? Like, this is why we’re working with cancer institutes. We’re hoping to partner with ministries of education in Africa, to see if we can use the models in kind of a positive way for education, rather than the way they may be used by default. So I think individual companies, individual people, can take actions to steer or bend this towards the public good.

That said, it’s never going to be the case that 100 percent of what we do is that. And so I think it’s a good question. What are the societal incentives, without dictating ideology or defining the public good from on high, what are incentives that could help with this?

I don’t feel like I have a systemic answer either. I can only think in terms of what Anthropic tries to do.

EZRA KLEIN: But there’s also the question of training data and the intellectual property that is going into things like Claude, like GPT, like Gemini. There are a number of copyright lawsuits. You’re facing some. OpenAI is facing some. I suspect everybody is either facing them now or will face them.

And a broad feeling that these systems are being trained on the combined intellectual output of a lot of different people — the way that Claude can quite effectively mimic the way I write is it has been trained, to some degree, on my writing, right? So it actually does get my stylistic tics quite well. You seem great, but you haven’t sent me a check on that. And this seems like somewhere where there is real liability risk for the industry. Like, what if you do actually have to compensate the people who this is being trained on? And should you?

And I recognize you probably can’t comment on lawsuits themselves, but I’m sure you’ve had to think a lot about this. And so, I’m curious both how you understand it as a risk, but also how you understand it morally. I mean, when you talk about the people who invent these systems gaining a lot of power, and alongside that, a lot of wealth, well, what about all the people whose work went into them such that they can create images in a million different styles?

And I mean, somebody came up with those styles. What is the responsibility back to the intellectual commons? And not just to the commons, but to the actual wages and economic prospects of the people who made all this possible?

DARIO AMODEI: I think everyone agrees the models shouldn’t be verbatim outputting copyrighted content. For things that are available on the web, for publicly available, our position — and I think there’s a strong case for it — is that the training process, again, we don’t think it’s just hoovering up content and spitting it out, or it shouldn’t be spitting it out. It’s really much more like the process of how a human learns from experiences. And so, our position that that is sufficiently transformative, and I think the law will back this up, that this is fair use.

But those are narrow legal ways to think about the problem. I think we have a broader issue, which is that regardless of how it was trained, it would still be the case that we’re building more and more general cognitive systems, and that those systems will create disruption. Maybe not necessarily by one for one replacing humans, but they’re really going to change how the economy works and which skills are valued. And we need a solution to that broad macroeconomic problem, right?

As much as I’ve asserted the narrow legal points that I asserted before, we have a broader problem here, and we shouldn’t be blind to that. There’s a number of solutions. I mean, I think the simplest one, which I recognize doesn’t address some of the deeper issues here, is things around the kind of guaranteed basic income side of things.

But I think there’s a deeper question here, which is like as A.I. systems become capable of larger and larger slices of cognitive labor, how does society organize itself economically? How do people find work and meaning and all of that?

And just as kind of we transition from an agrarian society to an industrial society and the meaning of work changed, and it was no longer true that 99 percent of people were peasants working on farms and had to find new methods of economic organization, I suspect there’s some different method of economic organization that’s going to be forced as the only possible response to disruptions to the economy that will be small at first, but will grow over time, and that we haven’t worked out what that is. We need to find something that allows people to find meaning that’s humane and that maximizes our creativity and potential and flourishing from A.I.

And as with many of these questions, I don’t have the answer to that. Right? I don’t have a prescription. But that’s what we somehow need to do.

EZRA KLEIN: But I want to sit in between the narrow legal response and the broad “we have to completely reorganize society” response, although I think that response is actually possible over the decades. And in the middle of that is a more specific question. I mean, you could even take it from the instrumental side. There is a lot of effort now to build search products that use these systems, right? ChatGPT will use Bing to search for you.

And that means that the person is not going to Bing and clicking on the website where ChatGPT is getting its information and giving that website an advertising impression that they can turn into a very small amount of money, or they’re not going to that website and having a really good experience with that website and becoming maybe likelier to subscribe to whoever is behind that website.

And so, on the one hand, that seems like some kind of injustice done to the people creating the information that these systems are using. I mean, this is true for perplexity. It’s true for a lot of things I’m beginning to see around where the A.I.s are either trained on or are using a lot of data that people have generated at some real cost. But not only are they not paying people for that, but they’re actually stepping into the middle of where they would normally be a direct relationship and making it so that relationship never happens.

That also, I think, in the long run, creates a training data problem, even if you just want to look at it instrumentally, where if it becomes nonviable to do journalism or to do a lot of things to create high quality information out there, the A.I.’s ability, right, the ability of all of your companies to get high quality, up-to-date, constantly updated information becomes a lot trickier. So there both seems to me to be both a moral and a self-interested dimension to this.

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, so I think there may be business models that work for everyone, not because it’s illegitimate to train on open data from the web in a legal sense, but just because there may be business models here that kind of deliver a better product. So things I’m thinking of are like newspapers have archives. Some of them aren’t publicly available. But even if they are, it may be a better product, maybe a better experience, to, say, talk to this newspaper or talk to that newspaper.

It may be a better experience to give the ability to interact with content and point to places in the content, and every time you call that content, to have some kind of business relationship with the creators of that content. So there may be business models here that propagate the value in the right way, right? You talk about LLMs using search products. I mean, sure, you’re going around the ads, but there’s no reason it can’t work in a different way, right?

There’s no reason that the users can’t pay the search A.P.I.s, instead of it being paid through advertising, and then have that propagate through to wherever the original mechanism is that paid the creators of the content. So when value is being created, money can flow through.

EZRA KLEIN: Let me try to end by asking a bit about how to live on the slope of the curve you believe we are on. Do you have kids?

DARIO AMODEI: I’m married. I do not have kids.

EZRA KLEIN: So I have two kids. I have a two-year-old and a five-year-old. And particularly when I’m doing A.I. reporting, I really do sit in bed at night and think, what should I be doing here with them? What world am I trying to prepare them for? And what is needed in that world that is different from what is needed in this world, even if I believe there’s some chance — and I do believe there’s some chance — that all the things you’re saying are true. That implies a very, very, very different life for them.

I know people in your company with kids. I know they are thinking about this. How do you think about that? I mean, what do you think should be different in the life of a two-year-old who is living through the pace of change that you are telling me is true here? If you had a kid, how would this change the way you thought about it?

DARIO AMODEI: The very short answer is, I don’t know, and I have no idea, but we have to try anyway, right? People have to raise kids, and they have to do it as best they can. An obvious recommendation is just familiarity with the technology and how it works, right? The basic paradigm of, I’m talking to systems, and systems are taking action on my behalf, obviously, as much familiarity with that as possible is, I think, helpful.

In terms of what should children learn in school, what are the careers of tomorrow, I just truly don’t know, right? You could take this to say, well, it’s important to learn STEM and programming and A.I. and all of that. But A.I. will impact that as well, right? I don’t think any of it is going to —

EZRA KLEIN: Possibly first.

DARIO AMODEI: Yeah, right, possibly first.

EZRA KLEIN: It seems better at coding than it is at other things.

DARIO AMODEI: I don’t think it’s going to work out for any of these systems to just do one for one what humans are going to do. I don’t really think that way. But I think it may fundamentally change industries and professions one by one in ways that are hard to predict. And so, I feel like I only have clichés here. Like get familiar with the technology. Teach your children to be adaptable, to be ready for a world that changes very quickly. I wish I had better answers, but I think that’s the best I got.

EZRA KLEIN: I agree that’s not a good answer. [LAUGHS] Let me ask that same question a bit from another direction, because one thing you just said is get familiar with the technology. And the more time I spend with the technology, the more I fear that happening. What I see when people use A.I. around me is that the obvious thing that technology does for you is automate the early parts of the creative process.

The part where you’re supposed to be reading something difficult yourself? Well, the A.I. can summarize it for you. The part where you’re supposed to sit there with a blank page and write something? Well, the A.I. can give you a first draft. And later on, you have to check it and make sure it actually did what you wanted it to do and fact-checking it. And but I believe a lot of what makes humans good at thinking comes in those parts.

And I am older and have self-discipline, and maybe this is just me hanging on to an old way of doing this, right? You could say, why use a calculator from this perspective. But my actual worry is that I’m not sure if the thing they should do is use A.I. a lot or use it a little.

This, to me, is actually a really big branching path, right? Do I want my kids learning how to use A.I. or being in a context where they’re using it a lot, or actually, do I want to protect them from it as much as I possibly could so they develop more of the capacity to read a book quietly on their own or write a first draft? I actually don’t know. I’m curious if you have a view on it.

DARIO AMODEI: I think this is part of what makes the interaction between A.I. and society complicated where it’s sometimes hard to distinguish when is an A.I. doing something, saving you labor or drudge work, versus kind of doing the interesting part. I will say that over and over again, you’ll get some technological thing, some technological system that does what you thought was the core of what you’re doing, and yet, what you’re doing turns out to have more pieces than you think it does and kind of add up to more things, right?

It’s like before, I used to have to ask for directions. I got Google Maps to do that. And you could worry, am I too reliant on Google Maps? Do I forget the environment around me? Well, it turns out, in some ways, I still need to have a sense of the city and the environment around me. It just kind of reallocates the space in my brain to some other aspect of the task.

And I just kind of suspect — I don’t know. Internally, within Anthropic, one of the things I do that helps me run the company is, I’ll write these documents on strategy or just some thinking in some direction that others haven’t thought. And of course, I sometimes use the internal models for that. And I think what I found is like, yes, sometimes they’re a little bit good at conceptualizing the idea, but the actual genesis of the idea, I’ve just kind of found a workflow where I don’t use them for that. They’re not that helpful for that. But they’re helpful in figuring out how to phrase a certain thing or how to refine my ideas.

So maybe I’m just saying — I don’t know. You just find a workflow where the thing complements you. And if it doesn’t happen naturally, it somehow still happens eventually. Again, if the systems get general enough, if they get powerful enough, we may need to think along other lines. But in the short-term, I, at least, have always found that. Maybe that’s too sanguine. Maybe that’s too optimistic.

EZRA KLEIN: I think, then, that’s a good place to end this conversation. Though, obviously, the exponential curve continues. So always our final question — what are three books you’d recommend to the audience?

DARIO AMODEI: So, yeah, I’ve prepared three. They’re all topical, though, in some cases, indirectly so. The first one will be obvious. It’s a very long book. The physical book is very thick, but “The Making of the Atomic Bomb,” Richard Rhodes. It’s an example of technology being developed very quickly and with very broad implications. Just looking through all the characters and how they reacted to this and how people who were basically scientists gradually realized the incredible implications of the technology and how it would lead them into a world that was very different from the one they were used to.

My second recommendation is a science fiction series, “The Expanse” series of books. So I initially watched the show, and then I read all the books. And the world it creates is very advanced. In some cases, it has longer life spans, and humans have expanded into space. But we still face some of the same geopolitical questions and some of the same inequalities and exploitations that exist in our world, are still present, in some cases, worse.

That’s all the backdrop of it. And the core of it is about some fundamentally new technological object that is being brought into that world and how everyone reacts to it, how governments react to it, how individual people react to it, and how political ideologies react to it. And so, I don’t know. When I read that a few years ago, I saw a lot of parallels.

And then my third recommendation would be actually “The Guns of August,” which is basically a history of how World War I started. The basic idea that crises happen very fast, almost no one knows what’s going on. There are lots of miscalculations because there are humans at the center of it, and kind of, we somehow have to learn to step back and make wiser decisions in these key moments. It’s said that Kennedy read the book before the Cuban Missile Crisis. And so I hope our current policymakers are at least thinking along the same terms because I think it is possible similar crises may be coming our way.

EZRA KLEIN: Dario Amodei, thank you very much.

EZRA KLEIN: This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

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